Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
We now have heavy arty that can move until it fires the first time.
Before the patch allowing heavy arty to move it was all working fine. Light arty is very good value but there are not that many armies that can field it and a lot of them have some weakness or other.
In MP if someone turned up with heavy arty then they were conceding the draw if their opponent didn't want to attack, and the way the scoring works in most competitions that largely ruled it out.
But now heavy arty can move. So they get drawn up in the middle of the battlefield, it takes 12 turns to cross the map and there is enough time to force a result, at least that is what I am seeing in quite a few battles. And once in range you have combined arms firepower with the extra '-1' on the cohesion test plus the ability to concentrate more fire than would otherwise be possible because the arty firing over head.
With that mod there has been a proliferation of heavy arty being deployed in MP games, in the TDC am seeing it in most of my battles for Classical Antiquity and Dark Ages. Would expect it to be much the same in SP games where the arty is available because the AI is going to have more difficulty countering it than a human player. Though in SP you have the option to self restrict it and just not deploy so maybe not such an issue but it is a pity to have the need to self regulate and I think it detracts from the game.
Here are a few recent examples of games being dominated by heavy arty:
Umayyad vs Arab Conquest.
In this one the Umayyad started with two heavy arty, they advanced across the map and combined with bow fire disrupted enough of the vet spears to win the battle. One arty was taken out by the Beduin cav but it was too late to matter. Umayyad vs Byzantine
This time both armies had two arty. The Umayyads formed up with a line of heavy infantry backed up by bowmen in the area of the blue rectangle. The Byzantines shot up the three lead units in sequence with the arty supported by bowmen and then charged them with lancers. Hence the swarms of routing infantry and one arty overrun. The Umayyad light cav is about to take out the Byzantine arty but the game is over. Macedonian vs Spartan
This game has only just started; both sides have pike armies and have deployed their heavy arty. If one player advances into range and leaves their arty behind they will be at a disadvantage because a few shots of arty could make all the difference in a pike battle. So both sides are advancing slowly so their arty can keep up and the whole character of the battle has changed from what it would have been without the arty. It seems pretty clear to me, heavy arty with the ability to move is highly effective and so players are making good use of it, myself included.
I think there are two questions here, is using heavy arty in battles historically justified AND is it portrayed realistically.
My assumption is that heavy arty is parabolic type siege engines like trebuchets and their earlier versions while light arty are direct fire like giant crossbows, not sure if this is the intention.
The only example I know of heavy arty being used in battle is Mohi, where the Mongols used it against the Rus. It was used twice, once to drive away infantry that were defending a bridge and then later to bombard the enemy camp. I would argue that neither of these situations are of an open battle, they are more akin to a defensive battle AND most important in both cases the defenders were static.
Maybe there are other examples of heavy arty in ancient open battles...
The second question: is heavy arty realistic in game.
Should it be mobile, I don't think so - it had to be assembled and was not on wheels.
Could it hit a moving target. I don't think so, by the time you had adjusted for range and direction the enemy unit would probably have moved to somewhere else, certainly they would move if being fired at. In game it shoots at charging cavalry as well as at anything else.
From what I know of history high trajectory firing only became effective with the use of gunpowder, the chance of getting a hit a unit by dropping a stone onto an enemy formation is modest at best. First you have to get it on the general target and then you have to be lucky enough to hit someone as on many surfaces the projectile is just going to get buried into the ground.
The calculation is entirely different for a bolt throwing light arty, here if you shoot at a unit that is 8 men deep you have the chance of hitting any one of them and my understanding is that bolt throwers are pretty accurate. And if the target is moving towards you there may be some adjustment required for range but not for direction.
Another issue is overhead fire. Could heavy and light arty fire overhead - probably yes to both. Could they hit anything, I doubt it if they could not see the target. The justification for arty firing overhead is that late Roman light arty was mounted on carts. Maybe reasonable to fire over one friendly unit directly to their front but in the game they can fire over several units of infantry and cavalry, both friendly and enemy, and pick out that unit of cataphracts behind them all. I doubt if you could even see an enemy unit through the dust if intervening moving/fighting units. So even if you allowed the Roman cart arty to fire over one friendly unit, what about the other armies arty that is not on carts.
So what would I like to see:
No heavy arty in open battles. Or if not that then at least revert to the old rule where they couldn't move.
No over head fire for any arty, as it is in Medieval.
Before the patch allowing heavy arty to move it was all working fine. Light arty is very good value but there are not that many armies that can field it and a lot of them have some weakness or other.
In MP if someone turned up with heavy arty then they were conceding the draw if their opponent didn't want to attack, and the way the scoring works in most competitions that largely ruled it out.
But now heavy arty can move. So they get drawn up in the middle of the battlefield, it takes 12 turns to cross the map and there is enough time to force a result, at least that is what I am seeing in quite a few battles. And once in range you have combined arms firepower with the extra '-1' on the cohesion test plus the ability to concentrate more fire than would otherwise be possible because the arty firing over head.
With that mod there has been a proliferation of heavy arty being deployed in MP games, in the TDC am seeing it in most of my battles for Classical Antiquity and Dark Ages. Would expect it to be much the same in SP games where the arty is available because the AI is going to have more difficulty countering it than a human player. Though in SP you have the option to self restrict it and just not deploy so maybe not such an issue but it is a pity to have the need to self regulate and I think it detracts from the game.
Here are a few recent examples of games being dominated by heavy arty:
Umayyad vs Arab Conquest.
In this one the Umayyad started with two heavy arty, they advanced across the map and combined with bow fire disrupted enough of the vet spears to win the battle. One arty was taken out by the Beduin cav but it was too late to matter. Umayyad vs Byzantine
This time both armies had two arty. The Umayyads formed up with a line of heavy infantry backed up by bowmen in the area of the blue rectangle. The Byzantines shot up the three lead units in sequence with the arty supported by bowmen and then charged them with lancers. Hence the swarms of routing infantry and one arty overrun. The Umayyad light cav is about to take out the Byzantine arty but the game is over. Macedonian vs Spartan
This game has only just started; both sides have pike armies and have deployed their heavy arty. If one player advances into range and leaves their arty behind they will be at a disadvantage because a few shots of arty could make all the difference in a pike battle. So both sides are advancing slowly so their arty can keep up and the whole character of the battle has changed from what it would have been without the arty. It seems pretty clear to me, heavy arty with the ability to move is highly effective and so players are making good use of it, myself included.
I think there are two questions here, is using heavy arty in battles historically justified AND is it portrayed realistically.
My assumption is that heavy arty is parabolic type siege engines like trebuchets and their earlier versions while light arty are direct fire like giant crossbows, not sure if this is the intention.
The only example I know of heavy arty being used in battle is Mohi, where the Mongols used it against the Rus. It was used twice, once to drive away infantry that were defending a bridge and then later to bombard the enemy camp. I would argue that neither of these situations are of an open battle, they are more akin to a defensive battle AND most important in both cases the defenders were static.
Maybe there are other examples of heavy arty in ancient open battles...
The second question: is heavy arty realistic in game.
Should it be mobile, I don't think so - it had to be assembled and was not on wheels.
Could it hit a moving target. I don't think so, by the time you had adjusted for range and direction the enemy unit would probably have moved to somewhere else, certainly they would move if being fired at. In game it shoots at charging cavalry as well as at anything else.
From what I know of history high trajectory firing only became effective with the use of gunpowder, the chance of getting a hit a unit by dropping a stone onto an enemy formation is modest at best. First you have to get it on the general target and then you have to be lucky enough to hit someone as on many surfaces the projectile is just going to get buried into the ground.
The calculation is entirely different for a bolt throwing light arty, here if you shoot at a unit that is 8 men deep you have the chance of hitting any one of them and my understanding is that bolt throwers are pretty accurate. And if the target is moving towards you there may be some adjustment required for range but not for direction.
Another issue is overhead fire. Could heavy and light arty fire overhead - probably yes to both. Could they hit anything, I doubt it if they could not see the target. The justification for arty firing overhead is that late Roman light arty was mounted on carts. Maybe reasonable to fire over one friendly unit directly to their front but in the game they can fire over several units of infantry and cavalry, both friendly and enemy, and pick out that unit of cataphracts behind them all. I doubt if you could even see an enemy unit through the dust if intervening moving/fighting units. So even if you allowed the Roman cart arty to fire over one friendly unit, what about the other armies arty that is not on carts.
So what would I like to see:
No heavy arty in open battles. Or if not that then at least revert to the old rule where they couldn't move.
No over head fire for any arty, as it is in Medieval.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
Frankly I think overhead shooting heavy arty just shouldn't be in the game, leaving just the bombards in Medieval. Mohi is also the only example I can think of, and as you say that was a quasi siege situation.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
From "The Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan head there are these possible examples of heavy artillery in field battles:SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:11 am Frankly I think overhead shooting heavy arty just shouldn't be in the game, leaving just the bombards in Medieval. Mohi is also the only example I can think of, and as you say that was a quasi siege situation.
Onomarchus in Thessaly 353BC.
In this unnamed battle the Phokian general is said to have used "stone throwing catapults" shooting "huge rocks". This certainly sounds like what we would term as heavy artillery, as large ancient catapults tended to fire stones, while the smaller artillery fired bolts, although that was not always the case. However, these catapults are said to have been positioned in hills, which might have been difficult if they were large machines.
Going to the original sources that Head quotes is even more confusing. Polyainos only mentions Onomarchus using "a number of men, who were expert in throwing stones, with a supply of huge stones and pieces of jagged rock for this purpose." which possibly suggests men chucking rocks down the slopes, rather than using catapults. Diodoros is extremely vague, and doesn't describe the action at all.
Jaxartes 329BC
Alexander is supposed to have used artillery in this battle, but as the machines are described as firing bolts they were probably only light catapults.
So, not much evidence there.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
I think Arty is a kind of mirror image of Scythed Chariots right now.
By "mirror image" I mean both are rare, exotic situational unit types, but while Arty is slightly OP, SC are a bit too expensive, given their (near) total uselessness.
By "mirror image" I mean both are rare, exotic situational unit types, but while Arty is slightly OP, SC are a bit too expensive, given their (near) total uselessness.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
if you just let the heavy arty move the normal 2 squares like light arty and heavy inf, they would at least keep up with the army and not result in halving the speed of initial approach. Should they be slower? Aren't heavy and light arty being pulled by horses at a walking pace? I have no idea.
Alternatively, you could do the shooting over like how I permitted bowmen to shoot over in dark ages mod, ie, in addition to if on higher ground, the only way they can shoot over is if they are adjacent to the unit they are shooting over and that unit is not in combat. That might be too complex of a consideration though.
They could also have a chance to miss altogether, and a higher miss chance vs a unit that moved on the previous turn? do they have a malus to shooting if within charge distance of any enemy? maybe they should also permanently disperse as soon as they are charged by anyone.
Probably the solution though is either a) go back to not being able to move or b) removing them from open battles.
Alternatively, you could do the shooting over like how I permitted bowmen to shoot over in dark ages mod, ie, in addition to if on higher ground, the only way they can shoot over is if they are adjacent to the unit they are shooting over and that unit is not in combat. That might be too complex of a consideration though.
They could also have a chance to miss altogether, and a higher miss chance vs a unit that moved on the previous turn? do they have a malus to shooting if within charge distance of any enemy? maybe they should also permanently disperse as soon as they are charged by anyone.
Probably the solution though is either a) go back to not being able to move or b) removing them from open battles.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
simple enough
My Mods:
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
Only for MP. There are issues with doing it for SP - but I don't think it was an issue in SP anyway.Schweetness101 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:48 pmsimple enough
Richard Bodley Scott
Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
Ppl playing SP who'd think it is an issue can easily solve it by not using this unit :
- in their army
- in the AI army using hotseat mode to select the AI army, then turn off hotseat mode to play SP
- in their army
- in the AI army using hotseat mode to select the AI army, then turn off hotseat mode to play SP
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
Indeed, and even if let the AI possibly field it, the AI doesn't know how to use heavy artillery effectively anyway, even with the AI bug fix that allows them to advance into range properly.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
That's too bad.
I liked having artillery in the game to add variety. They were virtually useless anyways cause they never do damage so just a visual bit of variety. And I like artillery in the sister games like Sengoku Jidai and Pike & Shot. It is always fun although nearly useless.
Historically the Romans used artillery all the time. They were notorious for their catapults and various ballistae.
I liked having artillery in the game to add variety. They were virtually useless anyways cause they never do damage so just a visual bit of variety. And I like artillery in the sister games like Sengoku Jidai and Pike & Shot. It is always fun although nearly useless.
Historically the Romans used artillery all the time. They were notorious for their catapults and various ballistae.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
My understanding is we still have the light artillery which is what was historically used in field battles and it is only the heavy artillery that has been removed from MP open battles.GiveWarAchance wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:06 pm That's too bad.
I liked having artillery in the game to add variety. They were virtually useless anyways cause they never do damage so just a visual bit of variety. And I like artillery in the sister games like Sengoku Jidai and Pike & Shot. It is always fun although nearly useless.
Historically the Romans used artillery all the time. They were notorious for their catapults and various ballistae.
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Re: Heavy artillery after the recent patch.
good to know Speedy, thanks
I like the battle photos in the OP. tyronec should do a thread full of his battle photos or an AAR series.
I like the battle photos in the OP. tyronec should do a thread full of his battle photos or an AAR series.