Question on moving tank to anti-tank

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Korvessa
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Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Korvessa »

If I move a tank with the award "unstoppable Offense" to an anti tank gun, does it lose it's overrun ability?
Or does it take both that and the "overrun" hero?
VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

What do you mean?
Korvessa
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Korvessa »

Tanks (only) have a special innate ability to "overrun"
Anti-tanks do not have that ability.
Other types of units can gain that ability if you assign them the "overrun" hero.
For example, I like to assign my overrun hero to the Azul infantry - works wonders

So the question is, if I take an experienced tank unit that has earned "overwhelming attack" and convert it to an anti-tank gun, does it retain that ability, or does that only work if I also assign the overrun hero?
VirgilInTheSKY
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by VirgilInTheSKY »

Korvessa wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:10 am Tanks (only) have a special innate ability to "overrun"
Anti-tanks do not have that ability.
Other types of units can gain that ability if you assign them the "overrun" hero.
For example, I like to assign my overrun hero to the Azul infantry - works wonders

So the question is, if I take an experienced tank unit that has earned "overwhelming attack" and convert it to an anti-tank gun, does it retain that ability, or does that only work if I also assign the overrun hero?
Overwhelming Attack is not a medal awarded by fighting, but a specific hero. I guess you mean Steamroller, the one triggers Overrun as long as the unit get a killing blow? Steamroller only works when a unit has Overrun trait either by natural or from a hero, it does not make you overrun something itself.
robman
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by robman »

Better conversion: artillery to AT. Artillery units gain experience more quickly than tanks, and you don’t lose Steamroller.
Sequester Grundleplith, MD
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Sequester Grundleplith, MD »

robman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:41 pm Better conversion: artillery to AT. Artillery units gain experience more quickly than tanks, and you don’t lose Steamroller.
You never lose steamroller on a unit that has earned it, you just can't take advantage of it unless: that unit is a tank or that unit has an "overrun" hero attached to it
robman
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by robman »

Correct—I meant “lose the use of Steamroller.” Unless paired with Overrun, Steamroller has no effect. I’m sure I’m not alone in having learned this the hard way.
adiekmann
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by adiekmann »

robman wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:09 am Correct—I meant “lose the use of Steamroller.” Unless paired with Overrun, Steamroller has no effect. I’m sure I’m not alone in having learned this the hard way.
This was changed some time back. It used to work where once the unit, say an infantry unit, achieved enough overruns to earn Steamroller, it would work even after the Overrun Hero was removed. Just like a tank, though an important difference was that a tank unit never needed an Overrun hero to begin with.

What this meant, and I and others abused it, was that you could have only one Overrun hero and keep swapping him out unit after unit so that you would have an army of Steamroller units beyond your tanks.

Maybe with the release of AO43 (?), I don't remember, but an update fixed and ended this abuse/loophole. So all non-tank units must have the Overrun hero assigned to it in order for the Steamroller effect to work. However, it does not lose the Steamroller ability to the point where you would need to re-earn it should you at any point remove the hero from said unit.

Aircraft are exempt for benefitting from an Overrun hero, so don't waste your time assigning one to a fighter or bomber.
nexusno2000
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by nexusno2000 »

The existence of the Steamroller trait on the tank class is a mistake IMO.

Once you get this (esp if combined with a couple of heroes) the game goes into easy mode.
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Grondel
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Grondel »

nexusno2000 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:30 am The existence of the Steamroller trait on the tank class is a mistake IMO.

Once you get this (esp if combined with a couple of heroes) the game goes into easy mode.
the bad part about it imo is that the steamroller unit will take no damage if it steamrolls, no matter what the prediction said.
nexusno2000
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by nexusno2000 »

Grondel wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:56 am
nexusno2000 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:30 am The existence of the Steamroller trait on the tank class is a mistake IMO.

Once you get this (esp if combined with a couple of heroes) the game goes into easy mode.
the bad part about it imo is that the steamroller unit will take no damage if it steamrolls, no matter what the prediction said.
That's the randomness. If you do take damage, then there will be no steamroll. But oc you steamrolling tanks are so good they very rarely take damage.

Tip: play with no combat prediction and 100% randomness. More fun that way.
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Grondel
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Grondel »

nexusno2000 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:54 am That's the randomness. If you do take damage, then there will be no steamroll. But oc you steamrolling tanks are so good they very rarely take damage.
no, its not. if the steamroller is triggered by killing all enemy units they will not fire back regardless of initiative, this effectivly is a free first strike mechanic when the steamroller kills all.
nexusno2000 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:54 am Tip: play with no combat prediction and 100% randomness. More fun that way.
i play on 10% randomness(cause 0% causes too many issues). Infantrie units killing tanks out in the open is nonesense. i don't like that slapstick type of play.
dalfrede
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by dalfrede »

Grondel wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:56 am the bad part about it imo is that the steamroller unit will take no damage if it steamrolls, no matter what the prediction said.
Not correct.
If you take damage, if there is support fire, no Overrun.
With Steamroller, if you finish off a unit you get Overrun even with damage or support fire.
Steamroller makes Overrun easier, not more powerful.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.
Grondel
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Grondel »

dalfrede wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:52 pm
Grondel wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:56 am the bad part about it imo is that the steamroller unit will take no damage if it steamrolls, no matter what the prediction said.
Not correct.
If you take damage, if there is support fire, no Overrun.
With Steamroller, if you finish off a unit you get Overrun even with damage or support fire.
Steamroller makes Overrun easier, not more powerful.
nope. the defending unit will never fire back when steamroller is triggered, even if the defenders initiative is higher or has first strike.
Image
in this screenshot u can see that the defending infantry has 100% initiative and will fire all before the tank attacking its forest.
Image
The infantry dies without ever firing a shot.

I do not know if this is intentional behavior or a bug, but has always been like that since the game came out and is what makes steamroller so immense more powerfull than overrun.

sers,
Thomas
Bee1976
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Bee1976 »

THe biggest issue with Steamroller is, that it is only limited by ammunition. And all traits to control STeamroller by limiting ammunition like wild firing or that reduced supply trait, impact other stuff way too hard, like anti air capabilities or artillery.

So with proper heros you can make a badboy takingout full resistance nests with AT and Artillery pieces. Give a 15 OS Panther or Tiger "Lightning Attack, Rapid Fire and Ignores Enttrenchment" and he will devastate nearly every defense possible due to steamrolling through it.

With a little will to abuse that mechanic and some light preparation (like softening with artillery/air), you can kill a lot of units per turn with a couple of high-tier tanks. Steamroller is way more OP than "On the roll".
I Mean a "surrender machine" can take out 1 enemy unit per turn and brings you some prestige. A good Steamroller Tank can kill up to 6 units per turn, and saves you tons of prestige by doing this.

Its ok if the majority of players like Steamroller the way it works now, but i would enjoy an option to reduce the power of steamrolling. Like a trait that makes Steamrolling cost 2 ammo or you get back 1 attack action per turn via Streamroll.
Grondel wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 12:04 pm Infantrie units killing tanks out in the open is nonesense.
Well during WW2 there is some amount of tanks that tanks were killed in the open. Ofc its a better way to wait in a forest or in buildings for tank commanders stupid enough to drive in, but from midwar on, soldiers had no chance to avoid fighting tanks in the open all the time.
And yes under high casualties. But they developed some tricks aswell, but to make long things short, it was possible for normal infantry units to kill tanks outside of close combat areas.

The game is kinda unrealistic in this way. You cant even pen most tanks in PC2 with infantry outside of close combat tiles, even if they are fully supressed and swarmed by 6 inf units.
In reality soldiers were quite clever to find way to destroy a tank in the open if they had to.Again under high casualties, but at least it was possible.

I dislike playing on a high rng aswell for diffrent reasons, but that offers infantry at least a little chance, like in the real war.
nexusno2000
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by nexusno2000 »

Grondel wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:38 pm
dalfrede wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:52 pm
Grondel wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:56 am the bad part about it imo is that the steamroller unit will take no damage if it steamrolls, no matter what the prediction said.
Not correct.
If you take damage, if there is support fire, no Overrun.
With Steamroller, if you finish off a unit you get Overrun even with damage or support fire.
Steamroller makes Overrun easier, not more powerful.
nope. the defending unit will never fire back when steamroller is triggered, even if the defenders initiative is higher or has first strike.
Image
in this screenshot u can see that the defending infantry has 100% initiative and will fire all before the tank attacking its forest.
Image
The infantry dies without ever firing a shot.

I do not know if this is intentional behavior or a bug, but has always been like that since the game came out and is what makes steamroller so immense more powerfull than overrun.

sers,
Thomas
Woha!

This is just super weird - and makes Steamroller even more problematic!

Oh well.
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Tassadar
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Re: Question on moving tank to anti-tank

Post by Tassadar »

nexusno2000 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:44 am Woha!

This is just super weird - and makes Steamroller even more problematic!

Oh well.
Agreed - changing Overrun in general so that the defending unit can still shoot back would be a reasonable balance change.
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