Artillerie-rework

[Grondel]

Last time I played the mod (or was it Storm over Europe?!) even in 1939 my inventory was full of different guns and stuff, with no real difference between the models. Makes no sense for me, the way its done in the official game is just fine.

Thats the units-toolbox mod that is integrated in SoE. i decided against using it. While a lot of the changes are good, some just don´t fit into my vision of how things should be.

Currently, when playing it feels like "Who has the hills, "wins" the artillerie fight, since they have one more range.
With more diff ranges and a bit longer ranges the importance of diversifying the units and not just have a bunch of 15cm guns should be more important.

That´s what i am trying to achive with this. How it needs to be balanced to make it work and if it can be made to work at all without new traits we will see.

To the what comes next part:
roughly mid july will be the next mayor update with a complete rework of 1939 and hopefully a finished 1943NH with all 3 pathes done(AC and West that will lead into sea lion and losing path leading into normal1944).

After that rework of 1940 and adding the new hero script to the rest of the mod(preludes and 1939 will have it with next update) is planned for the 2nd half of the year. Adding the unit changes with the artillerie is not a lot of work and since the new hero script forces to do a rebalancing anyways it´s not much extra work.

If u have any other suggestions of what you would like to see, let me know. Any ideas are welcome and will be considered.

sers,
Thomas

[DefiantXYX]

Currently, when playing it feels like "Who has the hills, "wins" the artillerie fight, since they have one more range.
With more diff ranges and a bit longer ranges the importance of diversifying the units and not just have a bunch of 15cm guns should be more important.

Personally I use 15cm most of the time because they defend vs. soft and hard attackers. As long as you dont have heroes to compensate that, that is just the best way to go, range is secondary.
I got no idea how to change that in a good way.
Right now there is no reason to use 10,5 guns or anything else.

To the campaign itself, I really like the part (after 1940?!) when you have to pick some of your core units to go on.
Makes the game more interesting and entertaining if you often have to get new and green units. I could imagine some events, send 3 veteran units (>3 star) away in exchange for some heroes or commendation points.

In the AO-Series I almost dont get new units after 1940 beside event units.

[Grondel]

Right now there is no reason to use 10,5 guns or anything else.

i´d make it "too little reason", since i tend to use 7.5 and 10 cm guns regularly to cover my inf in closed terrain. they don´t need 15 cm/AT-support there until 1944+ and the extra core slots are off better use someplace else.

To the campaign itself, I really like the part (after 1940?!) when you have to pick some of your core units to go on.

thats currently only in 1943NH. i am considering to do something like that at the start of evry campaign 1940+ to reduce the snowballing over the campaigns.

I could imagine some events, send 3 veteran units (>3 star) away in exchange for some heroes or commendation points.

that is an interesting idea for a com event, i´ll see if that would fit in someplace. probs the 44+ historical path could have some "sacrifice" events. cool idea, thx for that.

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

On the subject of the 15cm artillery: I absolutely hate it. It's too versatile in the human player's hands. I understand that artillery of all calibers could be used to provide fire support against a tank attack. I understand that a 15cm shell landing on the thin armor on top of a tank could have devastating consequences for the tank. But having 15cm guns provide AT support removes much of the reason to bring 10.5cm artillery and Paks instead. For one hex, you get a unit that does the job of both, but because it only occupies one hex, it provides better support. In the GC, I found myself advancing across the steppe using pioneers supported by 15cm artillery because that was the most effective combination. I eventually put in house rules to prevent myself from doing that. For my infantry units, I stick with a required core of 2 Wehr infantry, 1 10.5cm, 1 Pak, 1 recon bike, and one Flak.

For my own personal submod, I am strongly considering removing the AT support from the player's 15cm guns.

Artillery against tanks should be most often used to shell assembly areas before they attack (as, for example, happened quite often in Normandy due to Ultra decrypts), not in a direct fire mode directly targeting enemy tanks. This was done in some emergencies, but I suggest that this should require bringing the AT Support hero. It should not be a default capability of 15cm guns.

Additionally, one thing I did was to make the 7.5cm gun able to move two hexes without transport. This enabled me to use it to effectively support airborne operations. I know that there are some mods that add actual airborne artillery units, but to me it is just as effective to make the 7.5 we already have fill this role.

I also find it useful to set ammo amounts at 6, 5, 4 for 7.5, 10.5, and 15cm towed artillery. Since I often look to get double support heroes, this makes the lighter artillery better at the close support role.

[QSertorius]

Personally I use 15cm most of the time because they defend vs. soft and hard attackers. As long as you dont have heroes to compensate that, that is just the best way to go, range is secondary.
I got no idea how to change that in a good way.

Precisely. While 15cm artillery takes more slots than 10.5cm artillery, it doesn't take more slots than 10.5cm artillery plus a Pak. And the way support fire works with adjacent hexes, having one unit perform both roles is more effective than having two units fill each role.

[QSertorius]

One other thing: I know the topic of this conversation is artillery, but does anyone else find the Pak 36 to be too weak against early war tanks? Mine get beaten up every time they get attacked directly by enemy tanks or armored cars. Yes, I know that ideally they should be in the second line (which isn't always possible, but I try to do that whenever I can). But even then, they don't seem to do very well against early war armor, unless you give them OP hero combinations like Camouflage, QuadripleFire, and DoubleSupport. It bothers me that if I have 15cm artillery and a Pak 36 supporting an infantry unit, then my 15cm support fire does far more damage to the enemy tanks than my Pak would do. Even though the 15cm would probably be firing a pre-planned fire mission at a fixed point, not aiming at individual targets. I dutifully bring them along to support my infantry, but I feel like I am sacrificing efficiency to roleplaying considerations every time I do it.

I understand that AT guns cannot provide AT support to other AT guns because of what one could do in the late war period, but wasn't that kind of the point of the Russian pakfronts at Kursk?

[Grondel]

One other thing: I know the topic of this conversation is artillery, but does anyone else find the Pak 36 to be too weak against early war tanks? Mine get beaten up every time they get attacked directly by enemy tanks or armored cars. Yes, I know that ideally they should be in the second line (which isn't always possible, but I try to do that whenever I can). But even then, they don't seem to do very well against early war armor, unless you give them OP hero combinations like Camouflage, QuadripleFire, and DoubleSupport. It bothers me that if I have 15cm artillery and a Pak 36 supporting an infantry unit, then my 15cm support fire does far more damage to the enemy tanks than my Pak would do. Even though the 15cm would probably be firing a pre-planned fire mission at a fixed point, not aiming at individual targets. I dutifully bring them along to support my infantry, but I feel like I am sacrificing efficiency to roleplaying considerations every time I do it.

I understand that AT guns cannot provide AT support to other AT guns because of what one could do in the late war period, but wasn't that kind of the point of the Russian pakfronts at Kursk?

to tangle this i added camouflage to all 4cm- towed at guns in the game with the mod. At 1 core slot it is a very good unit now.

concerning the 15cm AT-support issue, i fear that removing it will ruin the "playstyle" of many ppl who don´t want to learn that 10.5cm + PaK is way more realistic. A way to deal with this could be to turn all artillerie that currently have AT support+arty support into switching units that can do either AT or Arty support depending on fire mode with AT-support mode having reduced attack range. That might "nerve" the 15 cm enough to make lower caliber Arty + PaK more interesting.
Same for the heavy artillerie, either long range+counterfire or short range+AT-support.


sers,
Thomas

[Grondel]

Additionally, one thing I did was to make the 7.5cm gun able to move two hexes without transport. This enabled me to use it to effectively support airborne operations. I know that there are some mods that add actual airborne artillery units, but to me it is just as effective to make the 7.5 we already have fill this role.

I wanted to give them "fastdeploy" but sadly that only works as a hero trait atm. instead i choose forced march witch does more or less the same in a lesser degree for ur purpose.

sers,
Thomas

[Grondel]

What really would help with this is some kind of a "deminishing-accuracy"-trait that reduces accuracy by x% per hex fired.
Shouldn´t be tough to create or implement and would reduce the impact of the OP-high level artillerie killing evrything.

sers,
Thomas

[QSertorius]

Additionally, one thing I did was to make the 7.5cm gun able to move two hexes without transport. This enabled me to use it to effectively support airborne operations. I know that there are some mods that add actual airborne artillery units, but to me it is just as effective to make the 7.5 we already have fill this role.

I wanted to give them "fastdeploy" but sadly that only works as a hero trait atm. instead i choose forced march witch does more or less the same in a lesser degree for ur purpose.

sers,
Thomas

FastDeploy doesn't really help anyway if you are moving them by air, since they lose their transport when you move them by air. Forced march is an interesting alternative.

[QSertorius]

One other thing: I know the topic of this conversation is artillery, but does anyone else find the Pak 36 to be too weak against early war tanks? Mine get beaten up every time they get attacked directly by enemy tanks or armored cars. Yes, I know that ideally they should be in the second line (which isn't always possible, but I try to do that whenever I can). But even then, they don't seem to do very well against early war armor, unless you give them OP hero combinations like Camouflage, QuadripleFire, and DoubleSupport. It bothers me that if I have 15cm artillery and a Pak 36 supporting an infantry unit, then my 15cm support fire does far more damage to the enemy tanks than my Pak would do. Even though the 15cm would probably be firing a pre-planned fire mission at a fixed point, not aiming at individual targets. I dutifully bring them along to support my infantry, but I feel like I am sacrificing efficiency to roleplaying considerations every time I do it.

I understand that AT guns cannot provide AT support to other AT guns because of what one could do in the late war period, but wasn't that kind of the point of the Russian pakfronts at Kursk?

This is the kind of expected result that drives me crazy when I use the Pak 36:

Screenshot 2023-06-08 140223.png (427.45 KiB) Viewed 220 times

Maybe I just need to adjust my expectations?

[Grondel]

This is the kind of expected result that drives me crazy when I use the Pak 36:
Screenshot 2023-06-08 140223.png
Maybe I just need to adjust my expectations?

u are looking at the wrong numbers.

PaK36 costs 14 prestige per point
Pamhard 178 costs 19 prestige per point

PaK36 is good at killing hard targets
Panhard 178 is good at killing soft targets

In ur example 14 panhard attack 10 PaK36. That is 266 prestige attacking 140 prestige. Expected result would be that the unit with nearly 100% "power" advantage would do double the damage.

The result instead is that the Pak destroys 57 prestige while the panhard destroys 56 prestige.

100% more investment for the same result. Or in another way the PaK is double as strong as the Panhard.

hope this helps.

sers,
Thomas