Slitherine

For the next update, how about Smoke?

Ignoring any technical work, I'm not sure (although I am sure the others will correct me if I am wrong) that we are convinced of the gameplay merits of smoke.

Perhaps if you guys can give some examples of how you would use it, it would convince us

Cheers

Pip

pipfromslitherine wrote:Ignoring any technical work, I'm not sure (although I am sure the others will correct me if I am wrong) that we are convinced of the gameplay merits of smoke.

Perhaps if you guys can give some examples of how you would use it, it would convince us

Cheers

Pip

Yes ... Since the update, using PlaceObject I observed that placing a "tree_cover" object blocks LOS ... If you pretend that tree is a plume of smoke then blocking smoke is possible ... All we need is to change that tree DDS to white or swap the s3f model out with a real smoke model from the animation folder.

Now ... applications .... Artillery Smoke Screen, Smoke Grenades, Dust trails (desert). I would think a full turn cycle for blocking smoke would be enough. If you wanted to get really down and dirty, using a FLAME attack on a tile may causing a prolonged burn resulting in that tile being blocked and perhaps with a little wind, the adjacent tile can block as well.

With regards to "dust trails" ... I have an old gaming story ... Almost 20 years ago I played an email battle against the owner of HPS Simulations, ("Sturmer") entiltled Tigers on the Prowl. I played the Russians in the Kursk scenario and if I ran my tanks at full speed it would leave a tell-tale trail of dust .... I used this as a trick and ran a few T60's back and forth on one of my flanks while sneaking the main force around the other flank. Well, it didn't fool the grognard but simulating that was fun

I wonder if scales will make smoke significative? May be some, but not all (I think about smoke grenade that should be included in the assault no separated from).

Does it block existing unit vision - which I would imagine is a pretty important part of using smoke?

Cheers

Pip

pipfromslitherine wrote:Does it block existing unit vision - which I would imagine is a pretty important part of using smoke?

Cheers

Pip

I didn't have a chance to test any "during-the-turn" drops of the tree_blocking object ... that would be an issue, but, I would consider the intial drop of smoke taking a moment to envelope the area, then disapate ... So, dropping live smoke during the turn wouldn't take effect until next turn's StartTurn, then disappating the following turn ...

Although it may sound all fine and dandy, the AI might get confused and the threatmap would show "all-clear" and it would walk out of it's positions right into a make-shift smoke ambush. MP sounds reasonable.

humph.

Based on boardgames such as ASL and Conflict of Heroes just to mention a few, smoke would be kind of handy in certain situations especially when assaulting fortifications.
I wouldn't like to see every unit able to use smoke (if could be perhaps an option like air support...) as it would get kind of out of hand.
Smoke is a LOS hindrance and affects all fire into, out of and through it in the same manner.
You can't place smoke in certain environmental situations (high wind and rain if I'm not mistaken)
Some vehicles could place smoke (some armored fighting vehicles had smoke dischargers that they used when required (same location only) and units with radios could call in smoke instead of regular artillery rounds not to mention smoke grenades (same or adjacent location).
Burning buildings create smoke (may drift a certain distance) and so do burning vehicles (same location only)...
Smoke grenades are used during movement and lasts until the end of the player's turn. I believe it costs a movement point to place smoke grenades in an adjacent location
Smoke from burning buildings and wrecks may last the whole game unless ended by some environmental changes.

The creation of a smoke screen to move troops across an open field or moving in urban areas would be a nice feature. The disrupted LOS would give assaulting units a chance to move to engagement. I've noticed that more often than not a troops moving in the open are suppressed once they enter into a square that can be fired on. I guess the question for use would be how it is dispursed and the area of covered to create the screen. Also it have to be implemented so it would not change game balancing in an overly negative manner.

For me smoke should only block LOS through the tile where smoke is layed. But as this is not completely right it would mabye have to add a value to cover value but this would not help much in case of an already be discovered object.

A good example can be seen in the Close Combat series although sometimes you have the feeling the smoke don't exist for the AI

For BA

Placing smoke to hide movement of troops seems to work via LOS in case a unit is not seen before by the AI.
But for tanks laying smoke when suppressed and they retreat, blocking LOS would be to much of an advantage. In CC this works fine because it don't block LOS completely but works more like a "filter" to los.

To let it work perfectly it should modify shoots through smoke so that the chances are smaller to hit the target.
And to give the terrain a better cover value so that carefully moving objects can be hidden.

To modify target chances is a bit problematic I believe because this would need to be calculated from shooting object -> target object and if smoke tile modify chances. No idea if this can be calculated.
To add cover value for a tile it needs to store original cover value and exchange it with modified cover value and restore original as soon as the effect is gone.

Smoke should last 1 turn I would believe.

Just to clarify, cover is the ability of something to block bullets and shrapnel. Concealment is the ability of something to lower visibility.

Tall grass is good for concealment but doesn't give cover.

Can't start BA at the moment because I'm at work but is there a Concealment tile value? Or has Concealment only value 0 and 1 which would result in block LOS or not.

Terrain tiles have a cover value. A road offers less protection than rough ground for example.

Concealment is when your unit is not seen until it fires, etc.

Pip can give a better explanation.

Copied and pasted from the scenario forum thread

I've seen smoke debated to death in other games. I think it should:

Not allow firing through it. Commanders would not want units wasting ammo.

Not provide cover. It is not a force field.

Should provide some bonus to concealment if in the tile with smoke. (added: should increase the chance of the enemy fire missing the target)

Gentlemen,

I successfully added some code to my smoke mod so I'll explain what I have so far ...

Current Rules ;

HE Effectiveness Reduction
- When firing (into/out-of) a smoke tile ... HE effectiveness is reduced by 50%.
Example .... A full squad of US_Infantry (5-men) has an average HE effectiveness value of 25 when firing at a full German squad at range 3 in open ground. If either unit is in a smoke tile, the effectiveness would be half ... In this case, the new value would be 12 (25 x 0.5, rounded down). If both were in smoke, the value would be 6 (25 x 0.5 x 0.5).

Defensive Smoke
- When a unit is taking fire and retreats, it will pop smoke in it's current tile before it runs away! (50% chance to pop smoke).

Possible Rules ; ... debatable and pending any coding problems.

A . Smoke Grenades ... Two possibilities ;
1. Smoke Grenades ... I can add smoke grenades to Infantry Squads the same way we have AP_Charges (limited smoke, maybe 1 grenade?)
2. Abstract Smoke Grenades ... Follows the same rules that ASL use ... A full squad (minimum 3-men remaining) can "attempt" to place smoke in it's tile or adjacent tile, with a 50% chance it succeeds (66% chance in it's own tile). This attempt will only be allowed once per unit, per player turn. The 50% chance will also be applied to Defensive Smoke attempts before the unit retreats, BUT only if the unit didn't make an attempt during the players previous turn.

B. Cover (concealment)
- I might be able to provide concealment. This means that if your unit(infantry only) is in a smoke tile (and not previously spotted), the unit is hidden. Similar affect to being in forest, building, etc. Example ... If your unit begins the turn hidden in a cover tile, and pop's smoke in the adjacent (non-cover) tile, it can move to that smoke tile and remain hidden. So, you can basically cross a street into another building tile without being seen!

C. Partial Smoke LOS
- Again, I might be able to do this, pending experimentation. However, smoke tiles will no longer block LOS !
- For each smoke tile a unit's direct-fire passes through will be reduced by 50%. It would be a waste to fire into, out-of, or through a smoke tile(s) but you might get lucky and you might add some suppression to the target. The decision to fire through smoke is left up to the player.
- I might be able to have the best of both worlds, where the smoke tile blocks LOS if it contains 2+ smoke markers. This simulates the smoke is thicker and represents no chance of seeing through the smoke.
- The biggest problem with BA LOS is that it's absolute ... It wasn't intended for us to fire through blocking terrain! ... which is good, but bad for smoke!

Do you want to change BA to Steel Panther

It would need to be implemented carefully if at all but I think the BA team could do it. I like the idea of it taking a turn to fog up the hex, which would stop people driving up, assaulting and then smoking. I also think it should be limited to a few units, maybe just artillery screens or engineers.
Smoke was a disaster in steel panthers.

tarroro wrote: Do you want to change BA to Steel Panther

soldier wrote:Smoke was a disaster in steel panthers.

I take it that SP went a little overboard on smoke eh?

I think smoke needs to be limited, for sure, but I don't think making smoke should be an absolute, meaning only engineers, rangers, etc.

Lets look at AP_CHARGES .... every infantry unit in BA has them. These can be assumed to be all types of AT weapons, such as Panzerfausts, sticky bombs, AT mines, etc. I don't see anyone debating over the fact that only specific units have this capability. It's acceptable?

I can see why ASL used an abstract system ... No book keeping involved to keep track of everything!

Maybe it all boils down to who can use it, why would you use it, and when it can be used.
And the debate continues ...

pipfromslitherine wrote:Ignoring any technical work, I'm not sure (although I am sure the others will correct me if I am wrong) that we are convinced of the gameplay merits of smoke.

Perhaps if you guys can give some examples of how you would use it, it would convince us

Cheers

Pip

First of all, is there a penalty to accuracy during night time scenarios?
I understand your point Pip about how smoke probably wont factor in to a win or loss compared to say, the skill of the player. I also want to suggest star shells for night missions(as well as adding more night time battles overall). If there is a penalty for vision being obscured it would be awesome if you could lauch a star shell that eliminates the low vision penalty for a couple turns giving your units an advantage.

khill9702 wrote: First of all, is there a penalty to accuracy during night time scenarios?
I understand your point Pip about how smoke probably wont factor in to a win or loss compared to say, the skill of the player. I also want to suggest star shells for night missions(as well as adding more night time battles overall). If there is a penalty for vision being obscured it would be awesome if you could lauch a star shell that eliminates the low vision penalty for a couple turns giving your units an advantage.

The only penalty that I was aware of was just a reduction in the distance you can see.

IMO, to do a proper night battle ... Every unit would have to be hidden and if they fired, you would see only muzzle flashes, which means most (if not all) of your shooting would be suppressive type fire unless you can actually see the unit, e.g. with some kind of illumination device (starshell or adjacent to a vehicle burning).

Another issue would deal with the current LOS rules. If your unit can see another unit, every friendly unit that has an LOS to that unit can shoot at it now(within gun range), which over rides the original distance set for night. That extra distance is removed next turn but it does complicate the whole thing.

I like your idea khill, but I feel (modders perspective) it would need an entire re-write of the current rules to create an awesome night battle.

Once all the various versions and releases coming up are dealt with, we will try and work out the features that you guys would need to be able to implement all these features. I imagine (and pray... ) it would just be some tweaking to the way that LOS can and is calculated, and the ability for modders to customise it.

Cheers

Pip