Slitherine

I do not have any suggestion or comment on the number crunching aspect of how supply works but really on how the player must interact with it and the feedback given during the game. I do not see any real value in making the player manually supply a unit if it is within supply lines. I as a grand general should not have to worry about that. My commanders should be doing that. Besides, the requirement just takes away from the fun of the game and really sets the player up for some un-needed frustration.

My suggestion is to make the supply button a toggle to turn on and off a supply overlay to the tactical map showing where supply extends. That way I can see who is being supplied and who is not. This will allow the player to better control his supply chain and to organize his moves based on what is actually displayed. I have attached a screen shot of what i am thinking. The red area shows where suppli is available. This is just a limited example but I think you will see what i am going for. (hope this link works)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3289339/supply%20overlay.png

Actually the "supply" system in PC is no real supply system so you don´t have to worry about the supply of your troops. Also there is no reason for a supply layer because the supply rules are very "KISS" (greetz to xitax^^). Full or partial depends if there is an enemy in adjacent hex. You only have to decide which units will get reinforcements or not. The ammunition and fuel limits are just tactical limitations. The prestige management for buying/upgrading/reinforce units are the only strategical decisions you have to make in PC. This system is quite simple

My point is that you stiull have to decide who gets resupplied...why? I do not see any use in that. The end result is a unit being sent into battle without ammo just because you missed the little icon. It is frustrating and IMO a poor mechanics of the game. I have also come across many units with o ammo but also no option to supply them. That is why? My assumption has been because they are out of range from a supply line somewhare. I am just suggesting that the units receive resupply automatically if within that line (if such line exists). The overlay was just a way to view that. I have never played the other game so I have no preconception on how it has worked in the past. My experience is just from a noob's perspective and would guess others may have the same perception.

When the option for supply is grayed out then you are in contact with an enemy. Move away or destroy them with another unit and you are free for supply. IIRC that´s the only reason why resupplying is not possible. Like I said. A layer would be a waste of ressources just for this case

If you don´t see any use for that you should use more air units or the rail gun. These units are constantly out of ammunition in my games. Otherwise I like the fact that you have to watch the fuel of your air units. It can be very tricky to conquer a new airport to save time and way to the front.

If you would reduce this game to "move and fire" it would getting boring really fast but that´s my personal opinion.

heinrich wrote:When the option for supply is grayed out then you are in contact with an enemy.

What makes this confusing then is that while I cant resupply the ammo (since they are in contact with the enemy), I find that I can still send in reinforcements. This makes it seem that perhaps the supply line is out of reach. I don't know...I still think it needs to be looked at. Perhaps not with a map overlay but something that is a bit more intuitive.

Ok that´s a point. Getting Reinforcements but no supply. The devs should reconsider that.

*BUMP*

Errrhhhh BTW you can disable the supply before beginning a scenario/campaign^^

I dont want to turn it off...just make it better or at least make a bit more sense in how it works.

Please just to be sure. What exactly makes no sense in your opinion? After answering your posting about the main issue I don´t see the actual problem.

My thoughts have been refined a bit during our discussion so it comes down to this:

1. the current method of allowing reinforcement but not ammo when in open conflict with an opposing force causes confusion. Because one could be done without the other, I logically assumed I was out of supply range or broken away form my supply lines. Apparently that is not the case. I feel others will think this also and based on comments from my multiplayer opponents and not the only one.

2. It is my opinion that including supply in the game is important so that is why I would not want to turn it off. However, I do not think manually having to click a supply button adds any fun to the game. I think the resupply should be automatically provided if the troop is within a supply chain (why I suggest an overlay). I now understand this method of representing supply is outside the current game design and very well may not be realistic but I feel having it represented in this manner is better for the following reason:
a. if I understand correctly, it is assumed all forces are within resupply if not in battle. I think actual supply lines would add a needed strategic commponent.
b. stupid reason BUT...I like map overlays.

gcfl wrote:My thoughts have been refined a bit during our discussion so it comes down to this:

1. the current method of allowing reinforcement but not ammo when in open conflict with an opposing force causes confusion. Because one could be done without the other, I logically assumed I was out of supply range or broken away form my supply lines. Apparently that is not the case. I feel others will think this also and based on comments from my multiplayer opponents and not the only one.

2. It is my opinion that including supply in the game is important so that is why I would not want to turn it off. However, I do not think manually having to click a supply button adds any fun to the game. I think the resupply should be automatically provided if the troop is within a supply chain (why I suggest an overlay). I now understand this method of representing supply is outside the current game design and very well may not be realistic but I feel having it represented in this manner is better for the following reason:
a. if I understand correctly, it is assumed all forces are within resupply if not in battle. I think actual supply lines would add a needed strategic commponent.
b. stupid reason BUT...I like map overlays.

1. There´s no point to discuss about that. you´re right.

2. a. first of all, yes every unit can be supplied if not in battle (i.e. no enemy unit in adjacent hex). I had a similar discussion about expanding the supply system with xitax and he enlighted me that it´s good for now but not perfect. the supply rules should follow the movement rules but that´s something else and shouldn´t be discussed here. IMHO the supply rules shouldn´t be expanded
b. yeah I like layers too but where we have no need for overlays we shouldn´t have one

gcfl wrote: However, I do not think manually having to click a supply button adds any fun to the game. I think the resupply should be automatically provided if the troop is within a supply chain (why I suggest an overlay).

Ok perhaps resupplying is not that big fun part of the game but its still something u have to take care of.
On the other hand i don't see how not to have to worry about resupplying would add fun.
Making decisions is the major fun in most games.
Resupply a unit will,as u know,prevent that unit from moving and firering in that turn.So u gotta kinda
plan how far u can advance/attack with a unit until its time to resupply and stand still for an entire turn.


Supply Chains sounds good (i would apreciate more complexicity in the game).
But it will be hard/delicate to define rules for it and probably a great deal of work implementing them.
Not to mention getting the AI to act "wise" about supply line's.
I'm not a programmer though so please any programmer correct me if i'm wrong.

Supply model is being considered, and has been an ongoing topic.
viewtopic.php?t=22300&highlight=supply+model

The consensus seems to be the current supply rules are too harsh, especially for units with low ammunition totals.
Once units have been finished their balance changes, we plan to revisit this topic and make a final decision. No sense in changing the supply model if the unit ammunition and fuel amounts are just going to change, right?

Just my two cents. I think a fancy supply overlay may be beyond the scope of this type of simulation. I think of "supply", as resting my units before sending them back into battle. As long as I have time to rest them a few turns during a scenario, and still meet the objectives, it works for me. I would like to know how bringing in reinforcements works though. If I capture a town, I shouldn`t be able to build new units there, the supply system should have to catch-up to my advance.

We somewhat agree, bobk, and our current formula reflects this.
As a point of fact though, there is a delay as 'the supply system catches up'. You cannot buy units the turn you capture a city. You cannot buy units the NEXT turn you own that city. Only after controlling a city and hitting end turn twice are you able to purchase units from a captured city. It's not perfect, but it's adequate for the time being. Eventually we hope to improve our systems, with things such as supply hexes and maybe supply dumps, but for now our focus is building the strong foundation for the game. That has to take priority right now.