Slitherine

Hi everyone , It seems everyone is looking forward to a way to deal with & defeat my Babarosa . I got the message from Supermax that He is confident to defeat this kind of Babarosa & show you the way to beat Morris in Russia . We both think the pbem before Babarosa was too boring to AAR , So we start from the turn of Babarosa ( May 13th 1941 ). I will make this AAR from my side ,& He will make another one from Allies side whenever he think is interesting enough . I have to point out that this AAR welcome Supermax's visit . Sothat we can discuss about it together with both side players .

A brief introduction before Babarosa : Axis took normal france compaign & accept peace . & also took Demark ,Norway ,Yugo as usual . but during & after the Norway's conquer , Max sent at least four UK units & 3 RAF to Norway from Bergen which Axis had no way to stop . His interfere cause Axis invest a lot of Ftrs to against Allies until Feb 1941. The Ftrs had to be back to east front to prepare for Babarosa . But that is not the end , we reinforce 4 INFs( 2 germany & 2 Italian) to Oslo . We won't just let the Norway back to Allies easily . We eliminate the front UK mech & make some special transport to make Norway alive .

In Med , we made a seafight & we are both hurt . Max also landed in Tirana by my careless . We also cost a lot to take it back .We found 3BB & one DD is coming from the Giberoto direction . It seems Max want to launch some kind of attack when my babarosa start . Max said he won't let me even rest for one minute ! It sounds terrible .but we have to face the challenge .

Babarosa begin in normal Morris way ,but it performs bad progress in front of Max's USSR at the first turn . Also we repeat the landing in Caucasus .We will see how will Max deal with it . It must be something different from Joe & Duncan .

Situation before Babarosa :


Norway front




Med front




Irac front




situation after Babarosa


North Babarosa






South Babarosa





Caucasus front






Norway front






Med front

Looks like a rough start. That's good, because the game will be more interesting.

Supermax is one of the few players capable of defeating you, so I'm sure that this AAR will be fun .

june 2nd 1941

Babarosa in normal progress . In norway , British retreat . In Med we lost two Italian BB .

North Babarosa





south Babarosa





Caucasus






Norway






Med

Cybvep wrote:Looks like a rough start. That's good, because the game will be more interesting.

Supermax is one of the few players capable of defeating you, so I'm sure that this AAR will be fun .

We will try to make it fun . The game with a creative player like Max is always full of funs .

June 22nd 1941

Normal progress in Babarosa .We split our southern group to Kiev , because we found several Mech stay there for train transport .We will stop & kill them .In Caucasus , the situation get wrose . Maybe they will die within 2 turns .
Norway is good . Allies only hold Bergen now . We will take & remove this unit . In Med ,we all go back to port to take a breath .

north Babarosa






south Babarosa





Caucasus landing troops





Norway front

since , Max's AAR had shown our Babarosa's progress well , So I just provide some personal opinion of our great compaign by almost all of Axis & USSR's elite troops . After the last turn of Oct 20th 1941 , this compaign come to the end . We jumped into the trap & experienced an extremly bloody compaign .

Axis lost 9 arm & mech( 7arm ,2 mech ) , 2 INFs ,
USSR lost 13 arm & mech(4arm ,9 mech) ,22 INFs , 45 GARS ,2 FTRS . Although we did not conquer any of Leningrad ,Moscow & Stalingrad ,But we did kill more than 60% percent of USSR troops . We did both badly hurt . We both need time to recover . It is too early to say who will win the game , but after we destroy all of the western landing troops . It seems we will have a break during the winter (although Max said he won't let me rest for a minute ) . This compaign is so rare that I had never experiened it during my last hundreds of pbems . But whatever the result is , this is not the way which will defeat my Babarosa . It is an accident . The original purpose of this compaign is just try to make an amazing compaign between the most agressive players to amaze the audience . ANYWAY , THIS IS A GAME!!


The strategy of defeating my Babarosa should come from the AAR with Duncan ,Plaid & Cliff . That should be the common way . The way of Max is only belong to Max . Please believe me You can't copy it . if you don't think so , I will be glad to show you how difficult to copy Max's acxhivement by a pbem .

Here I provide some screenshots after the turn of Oct 20th 1941 :


before move

USSR front







France front





after move

USSR front








France front






casualities





forces

High casualties for both sides, but what is making this stand out from other games is the fact that the Germans lost many units, which usually doesn't happen before winter.

Cybvep wrote:High casualties for both sides, but what is making this stand out from other games is the fact that the Germans lost many units, which usually doesn't happen before winter.

So does USSR . Usually USSR lost 5-6 mech & 5-8 INFs before 1941 winter , but in this game they lost 10 mech ,22INFs & 4 arms & two FTRS exchange to pp is
55*10 +85*4 + 90*2+ 35*22=550+340+180+770=1840 USSR's income is around 120 pp per turn ,it means USSR lost 15 more turns income . ( we did not count GARs & Hundreds of lose steps )

To exchange this we lost 6 arm & 3 Mech & 2 INFs is only 85*6 + 55*3 +2*35(another one INF die in France)=510+165+70 =745

745 exchange 1840 ! what a good business ! we only lost some pp ,but less manpower cost , but USSR not only lose pp but great manpower !

Morris, you cant really count it that way, the strategical value from units lost on the axis side tips the scale over to allies....You are missing a vital point, Russians can afford to loose these units...axis cant. I doubt that you will be able to launch any larger scale attacks on russian soil after this. Maybe you can reach Stalingrad and capture it, but that will be it.

Sure, PP- and MP-wise it may look good, but I doubt that you will be able to keep the initiative until 1943 and this is what really matters. The first years of Barbarossa are the most important ones for the Germans. The USSR can afford losses, because it has a high income (including some PPs from convoys and we all know that you don't bother with subs), while every lost German unit is a problem for the Axis.

Axis lost 9 arm & mech( 7arm ,2 mech ) , 2 INFs ,
USSR lost 13 arm & mech(4arm ,9 mech) ,22 INFs , 45 GARS ,2 FTRS . Although we did not conquer any of Leningrad ,Moscow & Stalingrad ,But we did kill more than 60% percent of USSR troops . We did both badly hurt . We both need time to recover . It is too early to say who will win the game , but after we destroy all of the western landing troops . It seems we will have a break during the winter (although Max said he won't let me rest for a minute ) . This compaign is so rare that I had never experiened it during my last hundreds of pbems . But whatever the result is , this is not the way which will defeat my Babarosa . It is an accident . The original purpose of this compaign is just try to make an amazing compaign between the most agressive players to amaze the audience . ANYWAY , THIS IS A GAME!!

Moriss, where did you take your numbers?

First thing about the losses:

youy did not destroy 13 ARM, i have 4 still on the map and i only built 7...
You lost at least 6 mechs, as i destroyed 6 in the last 3 turns, not counting the ones i killed before that.
you lost more than 2 INF thats for sure.

I also destroyed an Italian TAC, an Italian fighter and a german fighter. Also destroyed an INF and a Para + the HQ from your landings.

Also my INF Losses and GAr losses are a lot less than that as well. All my revenue went to build mech and tanks before barbarossa. So it might look like there isnt many troops on the map, but thats because i actually didnt build that many.

As to your analysis on the who will win this game, well my opinion is that on a strategic level you are in a very bad position for the time we are in in the game. You lost too much stuff and it will be very hard to replace the air units and 7 armor. your oil will not be getting higher soon.

Also Moriss

It is true that its a fun game, and the games between us are fun because both sides are offensive! I just which that one day i could get a player that decides to do a Sealion against me. Only 1 player attemted it since i play with you guys and thats Joe Rock.

couple pointers of what i think. I believe the same as the other posters here, the losses you have received wont be replacable. you have lost too much to hope for a miracle 1942 offensive. The only solution you would have there would be to concentrate all of yur troops in one spot, whici i will counter with an offensive eslsewhere in the front, as well as attacks in FRance, Italy... You would soon have to remove troops from your offensive to respond to fires elsewhere...

As to crippling losses for the Russians, again its not really a problem. First they are not cripping losses. Second, the deeper you advance in Russia your front will be more and more vulnerable... So lots of opportunities for me for counter-attack. So in a strategic point of view, i think you have lost the game or at least will need to be very lucky for the long term (hope to last till 1945).

As to being able to emulate what i did, i think it can easily accomplished, in the sense that any plater can concentrate 90% of the soviet army in a condensated area likwe Caucasus-Voronezh- Slatingrad and wait for you to simpluy walk into the trap. If you dent, well its a winner anyway since you wont reach your barbarossa objectives.

Crazygunner1 wrote:Morris, you cant really count it that way, the strategical value from units lost on the axis side tips the scale over to allies....You are missing a vital point, Russians can afford to loose these units...axis cant. I doubt that you will be able to launch any larger scale attacks on russian soil after this. Maybe you can reach Stalingrad and capture it, but that will be it.

Maybe its just me, but I still think its going to take a long time to 'finish off' the Axis.

I certainly believe that the Allies have a great position to go on and win in late 44/45 and given that Morris hasn't yet shown himself to be the greatest defender (I am a member of that club too!) maybe a bit faster.

But the problem the allies have is that they are going to still have a 'weak' army for a while and I would guess some factors in play could be:

1. russian lab builds have been skewed from those normally taken for a 'press to Berlin' model
2. the brits are a bit weak after there distraction efforts
3. it will take some time for the russions to build up there strength

supermax wrote:It is true that its a fun game, and the games between us are fun because both sides are offensive! I just which that one day i could get a player that decides to do a Sealion against me. Only 1 player attemted it since i play with you guys and thats Joe Rock.

And that was a failure if I remember correctly. Nobody should be surprised to hear that.

It was long before sea invasions became part of the game, though. I can't believe no one has tried it against you in the meantime?

joerock22 wrote:

supermax wrote:It is true that its a fun game, and the games between us are fun because both sides are offensive! I just which that one day i could get a player that decides to do a Sealion against me. Only 1 player attemted it since i play with you guys and thats Joe Rock.

And that was a failure if I remember correctly. Nobody should be surprised to hear that.

It was long before sea invasions became part of the game, though. I can't believe no one has tried it against you in the meantime?

Nope, none my friend. I guess people play conservativly against me!

richardsd wrote:

Crazygunner1 wrote:Morris, you cant really count it that way, the strategical value from units lost on the axis side tips the scale over to allies....You are missing a vital point, Russians can afford to loose these units...axis cant. I doubt that you will be able to launch any larger scale attacks on russian soil after this. Maybe you can reach Stalingrad and capture it, but that will be it.

Maybe its just me, but I still think its going to take a long time to 'finish off' the Axis.

I certainly believe that the Allies have a great position to go on and win in late 44/45 and given that Morris hasn't yet shown himself to be the greatest defender (I am a member of that club too!) maybe a bit faster.

But the problem the allies have is that they are going to still have a 'weak' army for a while and I would guess some factors in play could be:

1. russian lab builds have been skewed from those normally taken for a 'press to Berlin' model
2. the brits are a bit weak after there distraction efforts
3. it will take some time for the russions to build up there strength

We ll who said i was going to rebuild, anyway?

supermax wrote:Axis lost 9 arm & mech( 7arm ,2 mech ) , 2 INFs ,
USSR lost 13 arm & mech(4arm ,9 mech) ,22 INFs , 45 GARS ,2 FTRS . Although we did not conquer any of Leningrad ,Moscow & Stalingrad ,But we did kill more than 60% percent of USSR troops . We did both badly hurt . We both need time to recover . It is too early to say who will win the game , but after we destroy all of the western landing troops . It seems we will have a break during the winter (although Max said he won't let me rest for a minute ) . This compaign is so rare that I had never experiened it during my last hundreds of pbems . But whatever the result is , this is not the way which will defeat my Babarosa . It is an accident . The original purpose of this compaign is just try to make an amazing compaign between the most agressive players to amaze the audience . ANYWAY , THIS IS A GAME!!

Moriss, where did you take your numbers?

First thing about the losses:

youy did not destroy 13 ARM, i have 4 still on the map and i only built 7...
You lost at least 6 mechs, as i destroyed 6 in the last 3 turns, not counting the ones i killed before that.
you lost more than 2 INF thats for sure.

I also destroyed an Italian TAC, an Italian fighter and a german fighter. Also destroyed an INF and a Para + the HQ from your landings.

Also my INF Losses and GAr losses are a lot less than that as well. All my revenue went to build mech and tanks before barbarossa. So it might look like there isnt many troops on the map, but thats because i actually didnt build that many.

As to your analysis on the who will win this game, well my opinion is that on a strategic level you are in a very bad position for the time we are in in the game. You lost too much stuff and it will be very hard to replace the air units and 7 armor. your oil will not be getting higher soon.

Max :

1 You did build many troops ,especially 8arms 4 Mechs & more than 10 INFs . I got all these information from the above screenshots of casualties & forces . Please read it !

2 I never said kill you 13 arms , I said I kill " 13 arm & mech" !!!

3 regarding to my Mech & INF lose , please read the casualties report . the force report is not acurate sometimes , but casuaties report is acurate . please read it !

4 regarding to "I also destroyed an Italian TAC, an Italian fighter and a german fighter. Also destroyed an INF and a Para + the HQ from your landings"
I never deny this !

5 It is too early to say who will win after this kind of compaign which you have never experienced ! but I had ! I had experienced this compaign with my Chinese oppoent twice . one by axis ,another by allies , the end of these two game both are Axis minor victory . That's why I have the courage to jump into your trap ! But now this not important anymore !

6 My manpower is 790 & my fuel is 475 . I don't think it is bad situation for Axis before severe winter of 1941 !


Hi Everyone :

Actually ,my biggest shortcoming is my English .I will take much more time to express my idea clearly than you guys ! I will try to improve it if possible .

To be brief , this compaign was great ! Thanks Max gave me this opportunity to experience such an bloody compaign ! It is my pleasure of experence it .
Since It was a quite unnormal way of Babarosa's progress . If this attract too much attention , It will make people have a quite wrong idea of dealing with My Babarosa .
So I choose quit this game now . Maybe it will make some Max fan's disappointed . I am so sorry . Please understand me , I really don't have time & energy & language skill to do more arguement about this (but if it continue , I will have to do it because I can't allow the wrong information & conclusion to mislead everyone to a wrong conclusion).

Finally , thanks everyone watching this compaign ! Have a nice day & enjoy the game !

Wait... what? You think that you can win, so you quit? Is it a joke? Just continue playing and show us that your Barbarossa is invincible!

Cybvep wrote:Wait... what? You think that you can win, so you quit? Is it a joke? Just continue playing and show us that your Barbarossa is invincible!

so I think we need a little burst of manners

I don't think Morris ever said his Barbarossa was invincible

Morris is an interesting character, but either he plays an amazing bluff or his english isn't fantastic - those who have played him should recognise this (and its not nice to be miss quoted in any language, let alone a foreign one)

We shouldn't be too quick to beat him up for his clever strategies either, they do take some beating

I hear some of you shout 'abuse' of game mechanisms, well you should hold your tongues becuase if nothing else it is a game - and if you want to look at unhistoric angles then I think you should consider his Barbarossa is pretty plausible, a massive Russian tank army in response might be less so

and thats not a dig at Max, he plays fantasticly well and his strategies are game winners too (massive ARM response ) not to mention the odd 'gamey' moment when required, I remember well transports blocking access to the med

as someone who has played Morris a couple of times, I applaud his ability and desire to come up with testing strategies

but really, its just a game

consider his Barbarossa is pretty plausible

Germany massing all its armoured forces in the south and conquering Stalingrad in 1941? The Soviets giving almost the whole Ukraine without a fight? I must say that this doesn't sound very likely.

a massive Russian tank army in response might be less so

Gamey strategies require gamey counter-strategies. Moreover, the Soviets are fighting in their own territory - the Germans are not.