AAR 800pts Later Selecuid vs Mid Republian Roman

[sgtsteiner]

Hi

Played a very enjoyable 800pt game on Sat using my Romans at local Ulster Wargames Club (my first jaunt there in several years !!). My opponent Keith used Selcuids
No photos but you can see my pitiful Romans in action vs Hannibal in pics section of FOG Yahoo group if you are bored enough to look

My Romans comprised
1 FC
1 TC
1 TC Roman Ally
2 4 base Roman HCav
1 4 base Numidians
1 BG of Elephants
1 4 base Extraordinarii (Prot)
2 8 base Supr Legions
1 4 base Elite Triarii
3 4 base Velites
2 4 base Avg Legions (Allies)
1 2 base Supr Triarii (Aliies)
and compulsory Fort Camp
giving 14 BGs

Keith used (I think I recall it all correctly)
1 FC
2 TC (might have had 3)
2 Elephant BGs
1 4 base Companions
1 4 base Cataphracts
4 8 base Pikes
1 8 base MF Bow
1 8 Base LF Bow
1 6 base Thorakati
1 6 base Thracians with Hvy Wpn
1 BG of Scythed Chariots
giving him 12 BGs

Selecuids won Initative and we placed terrain. On my left was an OF and a small Plantation with a OF on base line on Keiths half was a SH on his left about mid table and couple of OF that had no bearing on events.
I deployed with Legions lining centre (Avg Allies on my left) with Velites to front.
My Elephants took left flank duty with Numidians further left. My Cav shored up my right opposite the SH. I placed the Extraordinarii in ambush in the plantation.
Keith deployed his Pikes enmasse opposite my Legions with his right having the nasty Companions & Cats and Elephants with LF support. His right was anchored on the SH occupied by the Bowmen/Thorakati/Thracians.

Both sides advanced all along the line with my Numidians evading from the Heavy Greek horse.
Usual inconclusive shooting from LF was prelude to the clash of Pike and Legions.
My elephants supporting Allied foot clashed with enemy Elephants and one Greek set of nellies were destroyed. However a 4 Base Legions BG was fragmented.
As this was occuring my Numidians bravely stood against charges by both heavy Greek Cav BGs with predictable result (ie auto-broken) this exposed the flank of my own Ele and the shaken (sorry fragmented Legion.
Too late I brought my Extraords from their leafy sojourn (they never made it to contact).
A Unit of Velites was routed exposing the flank of my centre.
On my right I extended one Cav unit into Skirmish formation and the other went Disrupted from bow fire but I had a TC on hand to restore cphesion.
In the centre a mighty battle ensued as I charged into the Pike Phalanx (4 BGs each 2 wide 4 deep) with my Impact Legions. I gained very narrow advantage over two turns of combat disrupting one Pike block and managing to inflict a couple of base losses.
This advantage proved decisive versus 3 of the Pike blocks in the end (due to loss of POAs once steadiness is gone) as one routed and the others failed cohesion tests.
It was great to watch 3 blocks of Pike flee with their General desperately trying to restore some order (not sure Keith enjoyed the spectacle as much)
One Pike block stood firm however and broke its oppossing Legion.
This was combined with the Companions/Cats flanking my Elephants and a Legion and breaking them both !
Time to send in the Triarii. I only had the 2 base BG on this flank but had the Ally TC on hand to fight in front rank. But despite intial stand they too sucumbed and another Legion was hit in flank (a Supr 8 baser !) and it too fled.
On the right things were pretty indecisive as my Cav could not take on the Inf on the SH.
However when the Pikes wavered Keith was forced to come off his hill and charged his MF Bow into an overlapping Legion file but it made no difference to fight. Indeed this unit then was charged by Roman Cav and routed.
I charged my other unit of Cav into both the Thorakati and the Thracians but no advantage was gained by either side and the Cav broke-off.
At this point I had suffered 14 attrition pts and so lost the game but it was a bloody and close run affair with Greeks losing 10 attrition pts.

Keith might remember things a bit differently but I think I got the essential actions in reasonable order ?

Comments :
All in all a very enjoyable game.

Only real gripe I had with rules was how to physically measure wheels ontable as it all seems rather fiddly.
We had a few rules queries but managed (eventually) to find relevant answers after lots of page flicking.

As another confirmed 'DBMM lover' I must confess that FOG is a decent set of rules written in generally clear style with great support for any queries that arise and a lot less headaches than Dbmm.
Movement (wheels aside) and Combat flows logically and smoothly (we had several multi unit combats all resolved without headaches).
Combat takes a bit of getting used to with its 'grinding' nature compared to more descisive/quick events of Dbmm but it certainly works as it 'says on the tin'. Actually its all has a familar feel to those of us who played 6/7th...........
We played a solid 4 hours with minimal delays for queries, FOG games are not quick.
My main dislike is the Cmd and Control rules (or lack thereof) vis DBMM and FOG still feels like a smaller scope of battle than Dbmm despite having a few more toys on table, FOGs 'top-down' view seems to hover a tad lower than Dbmm
Whilst I understand the mechanism/simplisticty of having Generals whizz about the place from point to point I would have preferred that they were more limited in who they can control, that said it is certainly fun/exciting using them in front rank combat (despite numerous rolls and with every Gen on the table fighting at some point we were lucky we did not lose any !).
I miss the inertia generated by the PIP system of Dbmm as FOG allows every BG to move every turn potentially and indeed the new Strategems.
At times FOG feels like line 'em up roll' em forward and chuck buckets of dice but I know that is down to lack of playing experience and tactical nounce on my part although I am not sure just what tactics are viable in FOG compared to Dbmm as match-ups are not as critical ?

As I said recently on Dbmm forum if I rate Dbmm as 9 out of 10 FOG is a close 8.
I can happily play either but suspect that FOG will be the more popular choice for Comps but maybe not otherwise ?

Looking forward to trying Cavalry based armies next instead of HF slogging matches

Cheers

[nikgaukroger]

Only real gripe I had with rules was how to physically measure wheels ontable as it all seems rather fiddly.

As you measure the straight line distance (same way as you would in DBx) I'm wondering if you mistakenly made it fiddly in some way?

[Spotter]

As the other player I have to commend Gary on his accurate recall. The pike had a minor advantage at impact negated by being overlapped on the sides but threw bad or the romans passed all their tests. After getting behind on the count there was no recovery and three ran. The rest faired well with the right wing slowly gaining victory.

Overal pike seem to be better value as they are cheaper than the Roman units and the supporting BG's mop up the rest. Expect to win more than lose with them against Romans.

Great game played in the right spirit and to a conclussion- a first for me under FOG.

Great to be back with BG's/units.

Wheeling as Gary has stated, caused a few worries. Niq-The difference being wheeling units rather than single elements. We managed to remember what we did under other rule sets and managed to sort it out.

As Gary said this was the only point we found that gave rise to a discussion and if in competion the use of an umpire, the rest flowed well.

Keith

[nikgaukroger]

Wheeling as Gary has stated, caused a few worries. Niq-The difference being wheeling units rather than single elements.

Well in DBx single elements don't wheel per se However, FoG wheeling is just the same as wheeling a group of elements in DBx which is why I was surprised that a DBx player would find it different - just goes to show that we all have different takes on things I guess

[neilhammond]

... The pike had a minor advantage at impact ...
Overal pike seem to be better value as they are cheaper than the Roman units and the supporting BG's mop up the rest. Expect to win more than lose with them against Romans.
Keith

No, pikes and Romans are equal at impact. And it's an equal number of dice. If the pikes aren't disrupted at impact THEN they have an edge in melee. If they are disrupted then the Romans have an edge.

Neil

[sgtsteiner]

Hi Nik

As you measure the straight line distance (same way as you would in DBx) I'm wondering if you mistakenly made it fiddly in some way?

As Keith said we sorted it in the end even if table looked like a trigonometry lesson at times
I think the main problem was that some of the wheels we were trying to perform were at fairly acute angles (ie not far of 90deg turns) and so any slippage across pivot point became more likely.

Never really tried wheeling a 4 element wide group onto flank of a 4 deep group in DBM that often

If all rules (DBMM in particular) gave rise to so few queries during a game I twould be a happy old wargamer

Cheers
Gary

[Spotter]

Neil

You are right in the exact wording of the thing. I meant that when the two sides entered combat overal. It was after the pike lost a few bases after a few turns and some became disrupted, Wrong wording choosen. They are a good match up and can go either way.

keith

[neilhammond]

... I meant that when the two sides entered combat overal. It was after the pike lost a few bases after a few turns and some became disrupted, Wrong wording choosen. They are a good match up and can go either way.
keith

Yes, it's an interesting match up and the initial combat is buttock-clenching as the outcome will usually swing the combat one way or the other.

[sgtsteiner]

Hi Neill

Yes Impact phase is when the Romans need to get lucky.
That said in our game we had one Pike block vs 1 legion that sat at evens for 2-3 turns with neither side taking losses or failing cohesion then wham bham goodbye to the boys from sunny Italy

In FOG gaining an slight advantage is just that as even winning the Impact phase or a melee phase does not mean job done as even a unit teteering on the brink (ie disrupted) can turn things around with luck of dice.
Not sure yet if I like or dislike this as its fine if your BG is doing the turning not so super if its the one being turned

Cheers

[terrys]

In FOG gaining an slight advantage is just that as even winning the Impact phase or a melee phase does not mean job done as even a unit teteering on the brink (ie disrupted) can turn things around with luck of dice.
Not sure yet if I like or dislike this as its fine if your BG is doing the turning not so super if its the one being turned

What I find is that with a slight advantage you can survive a round of poor dice.
If the advantage is against you, a round of poor dice can cause major problems.
If the odds are even you should be fighting elsewhere.

[imanfasil]

Nice report... quick question about the Roman list. Technically it isn't legal to field a Mid-Republican Roman Army with an allied contingent of Mid-Republican Romans is it? I was building a list that way to field an extra half legion and it was pointed out to me that MRRomans wasn't on my list of possible allies. Just curious if there is a rule somewhere that you can always have an ally of your own type or something.

Thanks,
IF

[nikgaukroger]

Nice report... quick question about the Roman list. Technically it isn't legal to field a Mid-Republican Roman Army with an allied contingent of Mid-Republican Romans is it?

That is correct

[sgtsteiner]

Hi

Ooops

I suspect it is a 'memory' legacy from DBM list

I did sort of wonder that I could get a TC for 25pts.

Another for the pool of learning

Cheers
Gary