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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:05 am

Very good, Iain. That is fine as far as I am concerned. Thanks for posting the update. :D

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by paulmcneil » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:08 am

IainMcNeil wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:26 am
We're currently collecting data on all games to find out what "normal" behaviour is to be able to set the thresholds that will prevent cheating.

This particular incident would have been averted if more time had been spent reviewing it but the system was designed years ago and has not really been reviewed as there is so much else to do so could definitely be better, so more man power is not a long term solution. After review we've noticed the system is better at picking up long term general abuse than spikes in cheating behaviour. When we have the full picture we'll work out how better to detect the cheating but we have first to collect and analyze that data.

We are very worried about false positives as this will kill the hobby quicker than failing to detect cheating. There is nothing worse than being accused of cheating when you didn't. We have probably been too reluctant to call people in the past but this has to be handled carefully and we're not sure that handling it in public is the best solution.

Also please leave any discussions about random numbers out of this. We will be ignoring them as they are not relevant to this and just confuse the discussion. In fact I'm going to ask that any discussion of it just be deleted. With the number of games in progress and the number of calculations done per turn, almost any possible outcome is going to happen. 1 in a million chances happen every day, multiple times a day. You'll even end up with one person getting two 1 in a million chances and maybe even in a row. When you have millions of people playing games this is what happens and there is no RNG that can avoid it, unless it cheats!
Given that a technical solution on its own won't solve this, as you say, to everyone's satisfaction, the human factor has to come in, I suggested this earlier in the thread: "Maybe a simple solution would be - a bit like drug testing in sport, any player who wins a promotion in the dl gets drug tested i.e. the log for reloads is passed to Pete, any player who has no choice but to reload due to some catastrophic failure on their system (which should be very rare) has to tell Pete and his opponent on that turn, a judgement can be made by Pete and the opponent as to the validity of a restart, vs any likely advantage achieved, anyone who has to restart for a subsequent turn maybe is not allowed to move on those turns, but can fire? And anyone who is found to have restarted without telling Pete and their opponent is disqualified? If you are reading this Pete what do you think? (or anyone else)."
Paul McNeil

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Athos1660 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:11 am

Slitherine seems to deal with this issue in the best possible way.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by kronenblatt » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:21 am

IainMcNeil wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:26 am
We're currently collecting data on all games to find out what "normal" behaviour is to be able to set the thresholds that will prevent cheating.

This particular incident would have been averted if more time had been spent reviewing it but the system was designed years ago and has not really been reviewed as there is so much else to do so could definitely be better, so more man power is not a long term solution. After review we've noticed the system is better at picking up long term general abuse than spikes in cheating behaviour. When we have the full picture we'll work out how better to detect the cheating but we have first to collect and analyze that data.

We are very worried about false positives as this will kill the hobby quicker than failing to detect cheating. There is nothing worse than being accused of cheating when you didn't. We have probably been too reluctant to call people in the past but this has to be handled carefully and we're not sure that handling it in public is the best solution.
Sounds like the right approach to me. Thanks! I appreciate the delicate balance here: on the one hand sufficient and efficient controls to prevent or at least keep cheating low so that players feel comfortable and we avoid situations where players accuse each other of cheating, and on the other hand not immense resources of Slitherine manpower surveilling all this and also not creating false positives (because as you say, being falsely accused of cheating may kill the love for the game). Going along these lines players versus player as well, I believe that players should really refrain from actually accusing each other of cheating now, and instead put forward such suspicions to Slitherine to potentially deal with (I'm thinking about poor Thunderbird here (2020-07-27), who was accused of cheating: how do you prove you didn't cheat, better to be up to Slitherine (and potentially automated controls) to determine).
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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by Swuul » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am

I have to say I am still quite shocked that cheating has apparently been so easy to do in FoG2 MP games. I was sure redownloading even twice would rise the yellow banner already. But nope, no such thing. For all that I know even that 99 redownloads might not have risen any suspicions if there hadn't been that 200+ redownload case of the same person.

However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.

In sports failing to participiate in drug tests three times within a year means you can take a two year break from the sports, in many countries committing a third violence crime means you are out for a very long time, in many countries recieving a third speeding ticket within a year means you can use the public transportation for a year or two, in baseball three strikes means you are out. In FoG2 "false positives" (what does that mean? if a player redownloads a turn 10 times it is "false positive", redownloading 50 times during 10 games is "false positive"?) seemingly are so dangerous that moderate cheating is ok for the common good.

Not taking action against cheaters has killed many good MP games. PUBG seems to be the latest to suffer, a massively popular game which is plummeting because cheats and the unwillingness of the publisher to take actions in fear of the same "false positive" as we seemingly have in FoG2 too. Letting cheaters roam in fear of taking action against somebody who is actually is a good person and an absolute angel who just happens to live at South Pole where electric cuts can happen 50 times a day.

I am shocked.
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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:01 am

paulmcneil wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:08 am
Given that a technical solution on its own won't solve this, as you say, to everyone's satisfaction, the human factor has to come in, I suggested this earlier in the thread: "Maybe a simple solution would be - a bit like drug testing in sport, any player who wins a promotion in the dl gets drug tested i.e. the log for reloads is passed to Pete, any player who has no choice but to reload due to some catastrophic failure on their system (which should be very rare) has to tell Pete and his opponent on that turn, a judgement can be made by Pete and the opponent as to the validity of a restart, vs any likely advantage achieved, anyone who has to restart for a subsequent turn maybe is not allowed to move on those turns, but can fire? And anyone who is found to have restarted without telling Pete and their opponent is disqualified? If you are reading this Pete what do you think? (or anyone else)."
There are a number of problems with this, Paul.

1) I am not an employee of Slitherine so I don't think that I am really entitled to the data. I don't actually know what Data Protection would say about this particular situation.
2) Why pick on just the promoted players? Are they more likely to have cheated? Not necessarily, in my view.
3) If I am to collaborate with suspected victims of cheating to decide outcomes it will only be a matter of time before I am accused of favouritism, being "bent", or whatever. Remember "Bog Ends" in Season 1.
4) Disqualifying someone for one offence in one game is a bit draconian for my liking. We could have a zero tolerance regime or we could choose to be a bit more forgiving for first-time minor offenders. If we took this second option then we would be less likely to punish innocent players. A judgement on the type of regime we should operate in future would also depend on how much confidence we all have in the new system that Slitherine eventually introduces.
5) A significant number of players do not read the rules at all so all sorts of bizarre things will happen if self-policing is part of what we introduce.
6) How on earth would you enforce players not moving, just shooting, in a turn after a re-start?

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by stockwellpete » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:04 am

Swuul wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am
However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.
I don't get that message at all. Where do you get the idea from? :?

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:12 am

IainMcNeil wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:26 am
We're currently collecting data on all games to find out what "normal" behaviour is to be able to set the thresholds that will prevent cheating.

This particular incident would have been averted if more time had been spent reviewing it but the system was designed years ago and has not really been reviewed as there is so much else to do so could definitely be better, so more man power is not a long term solution. After review we've noticed the system is better at picking up long term general abuse than spikes in cheating behaviour. When we have the full picture we'll work out how better to detect the cheating but we have first to collect and analyze that data.

We are very worried about false positives as this will kill the hobby quicker than failing to detect cheating. There is nothing worse than being accused of cheating when you didn't. We have probably been too reluctant to call people in the past but this has to be handled carefully and we're not sure that handling it in public is the best solution.

Also please leave any discussions about random numbers out of this. We will be ignoring them as they are not relevant to this and just confuse the discussion. In fact I'm going to ask that any discussion of it just be deleted. With the number of games in progress and the number of calculations done per turn, almost any possible outcome is going to happen. 1 in a million chances happen every day, multiple times a day. You'll even end up with one person getting two 1 in a million chances and maybe even in a row. When you have millions of people playing games this is what happens and there is no RNG that can avoid it, unless it cheats!
Sounds really good, Iain, thanks for that.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:21 am

Swuul wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am
I have to say I am still quite shocked that cheating has apparently been so easy to do in FoG2 MP games. I was sure redownloading even twice would rise the yellow banner already. But nope, no such thing. For all that I know even that 99 redownloads might not have risen any suspicions if there hadn't been that 200+ redownload case of the same person.

However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.

In sports failing to participiate in drug tests three times within a year means you can take a two year break from the sports, in many countries committing a third violence crime means you are out for a very long time, in many countries recieving a third speeding ticket within a year means you can use the public transportation for a year or two, in baseball three strikes means you are out. In FoG2 "false positives" (what does that mean? if a player redownloads a turn 10 times it is "false positive", redownloading 50 times during 10 games is "false positive"?) seemingly are so dangerous that moderate cheating is ok for the common good.

Not taking action against cheaters has killed many good MP games. PUBG seems to be the latest to suffer, a massively popular game which is plummeting because cheats and the unwillingness of the publisher to take actions in fear of the same "false positive" as we seemingly have in FoG2 too. Letting cheaters roam in fear of taking action against somebody who is actually is a good person and an absolute angel who just happens to live at South Pole where electric cuts can happen 50 times a day.

I am shocked.
I didn't get the impression from Iain' s post that Slitherine are happy, or intending to ignore cheating. The point being made, as far as I understand it, is how you determine what is and what is not cheating behaviour. You can't go around accusing people of cheating and banning them without being very certain they are actually cheating, and that degree of certainty is very difficult to achieve. Accuse and ban innocent people of cheating and you're going to very quickly kill this community and you're also very likely to lose a lot of customers who might have bought future products. That makes absolutely no commercial sense.

The balance, as others have noted too, is a very delicate one. Upset the commuity by the giving the benefit of the doubt and perhaps missing some incidents of cheating or throwing insufficiently founded accusation and bans around, upsetting the community (to my mind) even more.

Let's show some common sense here, please.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by IainMcNeil » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:54 am

Mike, that's exactly the problem. We have a zero tolerance for cheating and anyone we know is doing it would be banned. Determining whether someone is cheating beyond a reasonable level of doubt is the issue. Having a trial by public opinion is also not something that sounds like a good plan. An unpopular player (due to gamey tactics for example) who gets a false positive could be unfairly accused of cheating while a more popular player gets away with it.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by NikiforosFokas » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:58 am

So it is not possible just to save every move in the server!? This seems the best and the simplest solution...
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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by IainMcNeil » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:26 am

Unfortunately that would be an utterly enormous task and would not be a good user experience as it would have to upload the turn after every player action. It also probably wouldn't give any additional protection as at best it would just make the cheating more time consuming as you'd have to go combat by combat not turn by turn and by the look of it when people cheat, they do it combat by combat.

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Re: Late Antiquity: winners post your results here . . .

Post by Aetius39 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:41 pm

Division E

Aetius39 - Palmyran 258-273 AD with Arab 312-299 AD allies defeats baldrick52 - Frankish 260-495 AD 64-45

Palmyrans deployed spread across the map defending a hill with massed archers on their right, but the Franks started in a block that went for a hill on their right. The Palmyrans didn't want them to hold that, so there was a race for it. Palmyrans made it there but without a portion of their force; their lines were too far apart and it took a while for the massed archers and some stronger units to get there. While that was happening, the Palmyrans took an early lead taking out light units, but that evaporated and the warbands ganged up and flanked the Palmyrans on the far left of the hill. Luckily their superior units punched holes through the warbands, and the superior Roman infantry and cataphracts eventually won the day. Very close game until the end, thanks a lot for playing Baldrick!
Creator of "There Can Be Only One" tournament in Field of Glory 2.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by cromlechi » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:55 pm

Swuul wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:57 am
I have to say I am still quite shocked that cheating has apparently been so easy to do in FoG2 MP games. I was sure redownloading even twice would rise the yellow banner already. But nope, no such thing. For all that I know even that 99 redownloads might not have risen any suspicions if there hadn't been that 200+ redownload case of the same person.

However, what I am more shocked about is that Slitherine apparently has no qualms with some cheating, as long as the cheating isn't absolutely overboard. That is the message I get from Ian.

In sports failing to participiate in drug tests three times within a year means you can take a two year break from the sports, in many countries committing a third violence crime means you are out for a very long time, in many countries recieving a third speeding ticket within a year means you can use the public transportation for a year or two, in baseball three strikes means you are out. In FoG2 "false positives" (what does that mean? if a player redownloads a turn 10 times it is "false positive", redownloading 50 times during 10 games is "false positive"?) seemingly are so dangerous that moderate cheating is ok for the common good.

Not taking action against cheaters has killed many good MP games. PUBG seems to be the latest to suffer, a massively popular game which is plummeting because cheats and the unwillingness of the publisher to take actions in fear of the same "false positive" as we seemingly have in FoG2 too. Letting cheaters roam in fear of taking action against somebody who is actually is a good person and an absolute angel who just happens to live at South Pole where electric cuts can happen 50 times a day.

I am shocked.
But this is not the Olympics or violent crime, this is a minor hobby for most players. Anyone that cheats and I guess they are few is really just cheating themselves. At least I know on the odd occasions when I win it was done on merit and I would prefer that to a 100 unmerited victories and suspect most people are the same. There are still a lot of people who like the historical simulation aspect as well and the competition is just a small part of it. I agree we need to deter cheaters but I also appreciate the time and effort that goes into developing these games. Let's keep some perspective. Best wishes Adam

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:04 pm

cromlechi wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:55 pm
But this is not the Olympics or violent crime, this is a minor hobby for most players. Anyone that cheats and I guess they are few is really just cheating themselves. At least I know on the odd occasions when I win it was done on merit and I would prefer that to a 100 unmerited victories and suspect most people are the same. There are still a lot of people who like the historical simulation aspect as well and the competition is just a small part of it. I agree we need to deter cheaters but I also appreciate the time and effort that goes into developing these games. Let's keep some perspective. Best wishes Adam
Well said, Adam; I quite agree.


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Mike

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Re: Biblical: arrange your matches here . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:14 pm

sarmation wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:22 pm
division c
sarmation phokian challenge MikeMarchant greek asiatic
pm sent
Sorry for the delay, Sarmation, I missed this challenge, but I haven't received a PM and so I don't know the password.


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Mike

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Re: Late Antiquity: arrange your matches here . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:28 pm

Late Antiquity - Division C

MikeMarchant (Roman 24 BC-196 AD with Sarmatian 25-375 AD allies) Challenges Gdod (Byzantine 551-578 AD)
Password: SPQR
PM Sent.

I've mistakenly described this as a 'Classical Antiquity' challenge in the notes on the challenge itself, Gdod, but it is a Late Anitquity challenge.

Best of luck, Gdod.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: Late Antiquity: arrange your matches here . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:28 pm

Late Antiquity - Division C

MikeMarchant (Roman 24 BC-196 AD with Sarmatian 25-375 AD allies) Challenges batesmotel (Bosporan 11-375 AD with Roman 24-196 AD allies)
Password: SPQR
PM Sent.

Best of luck, batesmotel.


Best Wishes

Mike

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by GeneralKostas » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:55 pm

Theoretically, one simple solution to the cheating problem is to disable reloading of turns.

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Re: dkalenda has been expelled from the tournament for multiple re-loading of turns during his matches . . .

Post by MikeMarchant » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:59 pm

GeneralKostas wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:55 pm
Theoretically, one simple solution to the cheating problem is to disable reloading of turns.
But what then happens if you suffer a legitimate problem? You can't continue with the game.


Best Wishes

Mike

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