Slitherine

Following on from the Byzantine thread, there are stacks of lists who's main strike force is lancer cavalry - but usually with a variaty of options from average protected to armoured superior.

Where the list gives you the luxury of choice, is there a consensus on which permutation is the best to choose?
Should they be in 4's or 6's?
Is there any other tactic other than "stack them all up at one edge of the table and charge at anything in their way?
How do you protect the flanks of your strike force in this situation - are foot or LH better for this?

All this from my own experience and opinion so don't be swayed.

Armd Superior Drilled is best. But thats what you pay the points for.

Amoured is better than drilled

Superior is better than drilled. here I disagree with Hammy, who thinks armoured average are good.

But Amroured average are better than protected superior. So the points work.

Protecting flanks depends on what your army has. Lombard/Italian dark age types do it with other lancers.

I think LF is good for protecting the front from shooting. 8's of sling.

LH or any non-shock battle troops for the flanks if you can get them. Cv, MF, El, LH, HF, LF in that order.

So for a good lancer army you need the right support troops or lots of lancers

In the army we used in Usk I think the same result could have been achieved with half of our lancers as protected drilled....

While superior armoured drilled are really nice they are IMO too expensive. I would rather have more weaker lancers. I would also go for a mix of armoured and protected or even unprotected.

Against enemy skirmishers protected or unprotected lancers in one rank are more than capable of doing the business.

I am still trying to decide on which lancer cavalry force I want to go for. There are a lot of IMO very interesting options out there.

I have had some success using groupings of "bad" lancer cavalry. They are nice as a group operating out on their own away from your main effort. Three groups of Undrilled, Unprotected, Lancer, Swordsmen don't cost much (an entire BG of them is less than half the points of a 4 element Ghilman group) - but you can't ignore them either or they can run down weak troops, attack good ones in the flank etc. They are reasonably wide and just sending a single BG of "real" troops to deal with them will probably fail.

That said this job can be even better done by light spear/swords cavalry, but they are somewhat rarer in practice.

The other piece is I have moved to wanting some blocks of 6 for the fellows that are going to be the sledgehammer.

I have often found that when youlose and have to break off, its often accompnaied by bad luck, like a lost stand or disrupted. The unit of 6 is a bit steadier.

I still like the 4s for anti-Ghilman duty on the flanks, but they also suffer HPB.

So if I had 20 stands I am much more inclined to 2*6, 2*4 rather than 5*4.

Also I am moving from Ghilman who don't NEED generals when fighting to lancer Cav do NEED generals. And having a general with a 6 is nice.

madaxeman wrote:Following on from the Byzantine thread, there are stacks of lists who's main strike force is lancer cavalry - but usually with a variaty of options from average protected to armoured superior.

Where the list gives you the luxury of choice, is there a consensus on which permutation is the best to choose?
Should they be in 4's or 6's?
Is there any other tactic other than "stack them all up at one edge of the table and charge at anything in their way?
How do you protect the flanks of your strike force in this situation - are foot or LH better for this?

I'm used to play Komnean Byzantine (I played a lot with this army, winning the tournament in Milan).
I don't use any cavalry and footmen, only Kn, LH and LF.
Kn superior drilled are very good for close combat and also for manouvring (3 BG's).
I protect the flanks with 2 BG's of Kn average and skirmishing with LH and LF.
Sergio

I think 4's of Arm'd Drilled Poor Lancers have potential - haven't got around to trying that particular theory out yet though. At 40 points a pop they're good value too.

Pete

What about a mix ? 6s for the frontline and 4s for supports, who can move quickly to cover any enemy flanking moves.

ethan wrote:I have had some success using groupings of "bad" lancer cavalry. They are nice as a group operating out on their own away from your main effort. Three groups of Undrilled, Unprotected, Lancer, Swordsmen don't cost much (an entire BG of them is less than half the points of a 4 element Ghilman group) - but you can't ignore them either or they can run down weak troops, attack good ones in the flank etc. They are reasonably wide and just sending a single BG of "real" troops to deal with them will probably fail.

That said this job can be even better done by light spear/swords cavalry, but they are somewhat rarer in practice.

The problem with light spear swordsmen cavalry is that if they get disrupted then they have to CMT to charge. Against shooters that can be a very sweaty test and if you fail it you can end up in the poo.

I am in the process of rebasing some of my DBM Arab LH lancers as cavalry for FoG.

I know people have been somewhat underwhelmed by the Early Byzantine FoG list but I for one like the option of having Vandal Justiani armored superior drilled lancers and plan on fielding 3 BGs of 4 bases each to tag team with the armored average drilled shooty cav. I could be wrong, but I like the option of going with armor and choosing the Justiani over the undrilled superior Goth/Gepid etc option.

Dale

I would prefer that ption, the Armd Bow cav will be good at protecting the lancers flanks as well

hammy wrote:

ethan wrote:I have had some success using groupings of "bad" lancer cavalry. They are nice as a group operating out on their own away from your main effort. Three groups of Undrilled, Unprotected, Lancer, Swordsmen don't cost much (an entire BG of them is less than half the points of a 4 element Ghilman group) - but you can't ignore them either or they can run down weak troops, attack good ones in the flank etc. They are reasonably wide and just sending a single BG of "real" troops to deal with them will probably fail.

That said this job can be even better done by light spear/swords cavalry, but they are somewhat rarer in practice.

The problem with light spear swordsmen cavalry is that if they get disrupted then they have to CMT to charge. Against shooters that can be a very sweaty test and if you fail it you can end up in the poo.

I am in the process of rebasing some of my DBM Arab LH lancers as cavalry for FoG.

True but then the ability to run away is handy against a number of other things, in any case for the job it doesn't matter overly much.

ethan wrote:

hammy wrote:The problem with light spear swordsmen cavalry is that if they get disrupted then they have to CMT to charge. Against shooters that can be a very sweaty test and if you fail it you can end up in the poo.
.

True but then the ability to run away is handy against a number of other things, in any case for the job it doesn't matter overly much.

So you really need a mix of both types and to get them in exatly the right place at the right time

hazelbark wrote:
I have often found that when youlose and have to break off, its often accompnaied by bad luck

I have been playing with a lot of skirmishers, (Granadines, Andalusían and Fanatic Berbers in the testing), this armies have some lancer cavalry, and now I´m reducing the skirmishers in my lists and increasing the number of Drilled lancers as much I can.


I prefer even Drilled cavalry lancers to the Knights, now I have more flexible armies and more fun too.

A big BL of Drilled cavalry with LH support and a IC is a terrible mass destruction weapon.


David

robertthebruce wrote:I have been playing with a lot of skirmishers, (Granadines, Andausían and Fanatic Berbers in the testing), this armies have some lancer cavalry, and now I´m reducing the skirmishers in my lists and increasing the number of Drilled lancers as much I can.


I prefer even Drilled cavalry lancers to the Knights, now I have more flexible armies and more fun too.

A big BL of Drilled cavalry with LH support and a IC is a terrible mass destruction weapon.


David

Are the georgian cav drilled? sorry don't have my S&S book with me . . .

robertthebruce wrote:
I prefer even Drilled cavalry lancers to the Knights, now I have more flexible armies and more fun too.

A big BL of Drilled cavalry with LH support and a IC is a terrible mass destruction weapon.


David

Thats strange I had a BL of four Lancer armoured Cav with IC in combat with 3 BG of knights and within three moves three of my BG of Lancers had routed(losing Impact and Melee). Still got a draw but only because I could take out other lesser Armoured BG with LH. But I must admit against anything elese they do seem okey to me.
Dave

Are the georgian cav drilled? sorry don't have my S&S book with me . . .

Georgian cavalry is undrilled, superior, lancers, swordsmen.

Thats strange I had a BL of four Lancer armoured Cav with IC in combat with 3 BG of knights and within three moves three of my BG of Lancers had routed(losing Impact and Melee). Still got a draw but only because I could take out other lesser Armoured BG with LH. But I must admit against anything elese they do seem okey to me.
Dave

Of course, kn are more expensive, and should win the most of times in a frontal contact against Armoured Cavalry.

But cavalry is faster and manoeuvrable, and can help your LH to hunt enemy LH.

And Now the most of Knights are heavily armoured, when the armoured knights arrives in Oath of Fealty, you could see the real value of the armoured Cavalry.



David

robertthebruce wrote:
Of course, kn are more expensive, and should win the most of times in a frontal contact against Armoured Cavalry.

But cavalry is faster and manoeuvrable, and can help your LH to hunt enemy LH.

And Now the most of Knights are heavily armoured, when the armoured knights arrives in Oath of Fealty, you could see the real value of the armoured Cavalry.

David

David you make some really good points. I've been thinking about the value of armored lancers in FoG, as you say, faster then knights and more maneuverable.

The Meroviginian and Carologinian lists in Wolves from the Sea can have a number of armored cavalry lancers--giving them a good punch. Adding in the offensive spear foot option with the former and look out

Cheers,

Dale

Lancer cavalry are a rapier, they need to be inserted at the right point and the right time. If you line up and charge knights you are likely to lose. If you can pull the knights into a poor situation and hit them with a flank charge......