Slitherine

I think units get to retreat way too much in one turn. Sometimes it will take 4 or 5 of my units to kill one enemy unit as it will keep retreating, and I chase it across the map. Now I don't use mass attack as often due to my units needing to chase the enemy. What if the enemy, your units included, lost the rest of their movement points once they retreated into an enemy zoc? Or some form of this, would it improve the game?

superman81906 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:08 pm I think units get to retreat way too much in one turn. Sometimes it will take 4 or 5 of my units to kill one enemy unit as it will keep retreating, and I chase it across the map. Now I don't use mass attack as often due to my units needing to chase the enemy.

superman81906: Great timely post!!!. I have noticed and experienced exactly this same irritating situation, but for some reason couldn't propel myself to mention it... as you have just done so!.

I would submit, that a change is required!,.. perhaps by reducing the retreat movement allowance of the Unit involved... step by step... retreat stage/segment by retreat stage/segment or even come to a complete stop after the 2nd retreat action is completed... so that the retreating Unit does not scurry across half of the map... which is un-realistic anyway!.

And to make matters worse, a badly beat-up suppressed and retreated unit can miraculously get replacements and come back at you fresh as a daisy a turn later as if nothing had happened.
Future update suggestions- slow down the rate at which a suppressed/retreated unit recovers, so that it'll be several turns before it regains enough composure to re-enter the fray.
Also, slow down its rate of recovery even more if there's an enemy unit adjacent to it.

Right now a unit cannot regain more than 50% of its max strength in one go. We could reduce it further, but it will hurt players too.

BTW, you can change this yourself. Find PanzerCorps2/Content/Data/Rules.json file. Parameter "replenish_percent": 50 is how much strength in % a unit can get in one turn. You can set it to anything you like.

Rudankort wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:19 pm Right now a unit cannot regain more than 50% of its max strength in one go. We could reduce it further, but it will hurt players too.

BTW, you can change this yourself. Find PanzerCorps2/Content/Data/Rules.json file. Parameter "replenish_percent": 50 is how much strength in % a unit can get in one turn. You can set it to anything you like.

Technically a unit can regain its full strength in one turn, although that does require it to be sitting on a supply hex. Recons can do some funny stuff, though.

Retreating unit uses normal movement rules, force it to retreat into bad terrain - it will use all move points and surrender next attack. All used move points will be unavailable next turn.

Surround it, and it will not recover strength or supression at all.

And If its paticulary strong unit (otherwise why are you attacking it 5 times without killing?) its not necessary a bad thing, if it waste next action and ton of prestige repairing, while you can deal with other units.

There are radical solutions too - heroes which force surrender instead of retreat for example.

Plaid wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:47 pm Retreating unit uses normal movement rules, force it to retreat into bad terrain - it will use all move points and surrender next attack. All used move points will be unavailable next turn.

Surround it, and it will not recover strength or supression at all.

And If its paticulary strong unit (otherwise why are you attacking it 5 times without killing?) its not necessary a bad thing, if it waste next action and ton of prestige repairing, while you can deal with other units.

There are radical solutions too - heroes which force surrender instead of retreat for example.

This.

One huge element that would help fight this perception of infinite retreat movement is some way for the game to display the remaining movement a unit has. There is none, so naturally players think units can retreat infinitely, because something as fast as a 6 move tank can really retreat a very long way. Far more hexes to retreat down than attacks it can sustain before it dies from chip damage.

Here's another suggestion for a future update-
If a unit is forced to retreat, allow the ground units that attacked it to immediately chase after it and attack it again (if they want), to hopefully finish it off with an "exploitation attack"..

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:39 am Here's another suggestion for a future update-
If a unit is forced to retreat, allow the ground units that attacked it to immediately chase after it and attack it again (if they want), to hopefully finish it off with an "exploitation attack"..

I think a follow up move if an enemy unit is forced to retreat or destroyed would be a good addition anyway - not sure I like the idea of an additional attack though.

Making sure you have enough firepower in place to eliminate an enemy unit is part of the game. I play at 100% random and yes there are times when I just can't kill a unit because it retreats away with 1 str point due to an unlucky roll but I'm not kicking myself because of the mechanics but because I didn't have a back up plan to finish the job!

I never see problem with retreating; sure it takes several units to catch or destroy a foe.
IIRC the ratio to be quite sure to complete win in one attack in WW2 was 7 vs 1.

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:04 am I think a follow up move if an enemy unit is forced to retreat or destroyed would be a good addition anyway..

Yes I was going to mention an "advance after combat" option in my next post because it's frustrating throwing everything we've got at an enemy unit in say a city to force him to retreat, but because we can't advance into the vacated hex, him or one of his mates will simply waltz back in there during his turn, so we have to attack the city all over again on our next turn.
In most other board and computer wargames there's an "advance after combat" option which allows us to occupy the hex after kicking him out, and that's what PC2 needs too.

superman81906 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:08 pm I think units get to retreat way too much in one turn. Sometimes it will take 4 or 5 of my units to kill one enemy unit as it will keep retreating, and I chase it across the map. Now I don't use mass attack as often due to my units needing to chase the enemy.

its also my feeling.

I often feel cheated when unit retreats using movement point from another turn. I should be able to use movement point from next turn to pursue them and kill them.

The MP gameplay feel much slower in PC2 as a result. Something to tweak because its not fun. Its kinda hard to understand where a unit is going to retreat. Often times, its tactically better to attack with weaker unit first in the hope the unit won't escape. pretty annoying. Was easier in PC1.

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:44 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:04 am I think a follow up move if an enemy unit is forced to retreat or destroyed would be a good addition anyway..

Yes I was going to mention an "advance after combat" option in my next post because it's frustrating throwing everything we've got at an enemy unit in say a city to force him to retreat, but because we can't advance into the vacated hex, him or one of his mates will simply waltz back in there during his turn, so we have to attack the city all over again on our next turn.
In most other board and computer wargames there's an "advance after combat" option which allows us to occupy the hex after kicking him out, and that's what PC2 needs too.

Excellent-Observation!!!: Remedial Gaming Justice needs to be implemented just as you have suggested... "PoorOldSpike"... I applaud your singling out this 'Game-Flaw'.

The retreat mechanism needs a complete overhaul. Units retreat at exactly 66% every time, another poor battle mechanism. 66% exactly no variability, battle outcomes are far to predictable and dumbed down.

The manual on retreats

"When you kill 66% of a unit’s unsuppressed strength, it will retreat. Retreats can now occur over multiple hexes, but they will try to avoid enemy zones of control and will never retreat into impassable terrain. "

You instantly lost all credibility when you complained that an outcome of an event is too reliable. Not everyone is going to enjoy wildly swinging RNG.

Dorky8 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:12 pm The retreat mechanism needs a complete overhaul. Units retreat at exactly 66% every time, another poor battle mechanism. 66% exactly no variability, battle outcomes are far to predictable and dumbed down.

The manual on retreats

"When you kill 66% of a unit’s unsuppressed strength, it will retreat. Retreats can now occur over multiple hexes, but they will try to avoid enemy zones of control and will never retreat into impassable terrain. "

But unless you play with 0 rng... You don't know how much damage you will do... I don't think you understand this game well enough to make sweeping suggestions.

There is a point when you know its about to retreat don't you now junior.

IMO this game is built for people with no war gaming experience.

Can you seriously not kill enemy units? Do they always get away? And retreat more than once?

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:07 pm Can you seriously not kill enemy units? Do they always get away? And retreat more than once?

play MP games.

its the norm.

In one game..at a choke point.. our units just stare at each other.. one player attacks means a net loss of prestige. the attacked unit retreats.. heals and come back 2 turns afterwards. but the attacker lost more prestige and they are a nest of units packed around in all hexes

anti tanks support make it impossible for tanks to do anything. and arty protects infantry in city from infantry attacks. While one unit heals another take its spot. Sure the replacement costs are higher but then the game devolves not in a tactical game but in lets see who is able to win the prestige accounting game.

In PC1, you would never have that. Because you knew any unit fully suppressed and blocked was a total loss. Here you don't care. So you can spam all the hexes without leaving open corridors.
In PC1 you could do blitzgrieg in MP scenarios. In PC2.. its not possible. TDs are pure pain. They lock down everything. And since units retreat through you can't surround and kill units easily at all..

Maybe its an illusion on my side because PC1 sounds make the game more punchy. but in PC2 everything feels slow. The planes being so constrained on bigger map don't help either. Plane tactics are quite limited. But of course that was designed for campaigns.. not for MP games. PC2 is certainly more realistic for solo play. But its less fun for me in MP.

Mordan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:46 pm play MP games.

its the norm.

In one game..at a choke point.. our units just stare at each other.. one player attacks means a net loss of prestige. the attacked unit retreats.. heals and come back 2 turns afterwards. but the attacker lost more prestige and they are a nest of units packed around in all hexes

anti tanks support make it impossible for tanks to do anything. and arty protects infantry in city from infantry attacks. While one unit heals another take its spot. Sure the replacement costs are higher but then the game devolves not in a tactical game but in lets see who is able to win the prestige accounting game.

In PC1, you would never have that. Because you knew any unit fully suppressed and blocked was a total loss. Here you don't care. So you can spam all the hexes without leaving open corridors.
In PC1 you could do blitzgrieg in MP scenarios. In PC2.. its not possible. TDs are pure pain. They lock down everything. And since units retreat through you can't surround and kill units easily at all..

Maybe its an illusion on my side because PC1 sounds make the game more punchy. but in PC2 everything feels slow. The planes being so constrained on bigger map don't help either. Plane tactics are quite limited. But of course that was designed for campaigns.. not for MP games. PC2 is certainly more realistic for solo play. But its less fun for me in MP.

It's almost as if paratroopers, phase moving recon units, encirclement tactics, limited core slots, and limited prestige settings is intentionally designed at creating new fronts to fight on instead of having trying to break through the front of defensive AT/ARTY support triangle chokepoints.