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A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:36 pm
by Mordan
10 strong KV-2 vs 8 suppressed encircled without ammo Panther
KV-2 does nothing.. Tank commanders don't know about HE?
Not a single loss for the Panther...
Totally out of whack. The game mechanics are totally not intuitive and don't make sense really.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:32 am
by ErissN6
The KV-2 was made to shoot at concrete, not against metal, it's a self-propelled gun, not a combat tank, despite it's an heavy tank.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:00 am
by Hemi
Mordan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:36 pm
10 strong KV-2 vs 8 suppressed encircled without ammo Panther
KV-2 does nothing.. Tank commanders don't know about HE?
Not a single loss for the Panther...
Totally out of whack. The game mechanics are totally not intuitive and don't make sense really.
KV2 is artillery for taking out bunkers. It wasn't meant to fight tanks. And it's kind of out of whack that it met a Panther. KV2 production stopped in 1941 when they overran the factories, and only 203 were built. Panthers came out in 1943, one would think they wouldn't meet.
But it's a game.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:04 am
by monkspider
KV-2 didn't have a very good anti-tank gun for dealing with even Panzer IIIs or IVs. I imagine it would have extreme difficulty piercing the armor of a Panther, so I think the game was pretty historically accurate actually. It was a beast of a tank though and very good at dealing with infantry emplacements.Trying to fight a relatively heavy tank like a Panther with it though is like trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. That is part of the game though, trying to learn the strengths and weaknesses of all the units.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:46 am
by SineMora
A KV-2 has 16 HA and a Panther has what, 24 or 25 ground defence? You might not like the balance but it doesn't really get simpler than that.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:43 am
by Nalikill
It would be really nice if units that did zero suppression and zero kills could at least kill a few units of Fuel. It feels very bad - and counterintuitive - to see an attack completely whiff and have literally zero effect on an encircled, fully-suppressed target.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:50 am
by MickMannock
Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:43 am
It would be really nice if units that did zero suppression and zero kills could at least kill a few units of Fuel. It feels very bad - and counterintuitive - to see an attack completely whiff and have literally zero effect on an encircled, fully-suppressed target.
Yeah, I had a similar situation in the Fall Weiss scenario. An armored train was completely surrounded and suppressed for several turns. My infantry couldn't even make a scratch. The Stukas could but bad weather kept them at the airfield. I had one tank close by which had a prediction of causing one casualty but for three turns in a row it wasn't able to damage the train at all (and I tried with all my infantry too of course, but that didn't help either). It felt a bit silly really.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:38 pm
by ErissN6
. IIRC, a victorious (for few time still) B1-bis french tank had 70 shell impacts on its armor.
. The lost heavy german tanks after battles were not destroyed by russians during combats, but after. If germans were not retreating, they could have taken them back and fighting again. (it reminds me in Irak some years ago, heavy US tanks destroyed by own A-10, not by 'terrorists' threatening to capture them)
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:09 pm
by Mordan
ErissN6 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:32 am
The KV-2 was made to shoot at concrete, not against metal, it's a self-propelled gun, not a combat tank, despite it's an heavy tank.
yes well ok. but what happens if they shoot HE shells on Panthers without ammo? Do you think the Panther crew will survive a rain of HE shells? KV2 commanders see the panther are out of ammo.. do you think they wont come close and blast away the panther?
Its completely ridiculous.
I totally don't like the gameplay mechanics.. and I don't see how a WOT gamer would enjoy this game. I stopped playing. I did the puzzles.. but even those were not funny with the mechanics. That's where i saw a KV2 does nothing to the Panther puzzle.
I agree with KV2 doing nothing to a fully unsuppressed combat ready panther battalion.. but a fully suppressed without ammo? Bullshit! they should at least be able to chip it away and force them to retreat!!! KV2 attack does NOOOOOOOOOTHHHINGGG???????? ARGH.. I am flagger blasted game designers are so blinded.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:16 pm
by Nalikill
Mordan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:09 pm
I don't see how a WOT gamer would enjoy this game.
Why would they? This is not made for first-person or third-person tank-on-tank combat. This is for tactical / strategical turn based gameplay. Completely different genres. The experiences they offer will - and should be - completely different.
Mordan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:09 pm
. I stopped playing. I did the puzzles.. but even those were not funny with the mechanics. That's where i saw a KV2 does nothing to the Panther puzzle.
I agree with KV2 doing nothing to a fully unsuppressed combat ready panther battalion.. but a fully suppressed without ammo? Bullshit! they should at least be able to chip it away and force them to retreat!!! KV2 attack does NOOOOOOOOOTHHHINGGG???????? ARGH.. I am flagger blasted game designers are so blinded.
I do agree it feels very bad bad for an attack to literally go "thunk" and do literally nothing. An encircled, suppressed, out-of-ammo unit should have a lot of maluses to it.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:20 pm
by Horseman
Mordan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:09 pm
ErissN6 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:32 am
The KV-2 was made to shoot at concrete, not against metal, it's a self-propelled gun, not a combat tank, despite it's an heavy tank.
yes well ok. but what happens if they shoot HE shells on Panthers without ammo? Do you think the Panther crew will survive a rain of HE shells? KV2 commanders see the panther are out of ammo.. do you think they wont come close and blast away the panther?
Its completely ridiculous.
I totally don't like the gameplay mechanics.. and I don't see how a WOT gamer would enjoy this game. I stopped playing. I did the puzzles.. but even those were not funny with the mechanics. That's where i saw a KV2 does nothing to the Panther puzzle.
I agree with KV2 doing nothing to a fully unsuppressed combat ready panther battalion.. but a fully suppressed without ammo? Bullshit! they should at least be able to chip it away and force them to retreat!!! KV2 attack does NOOOOOOOOOTHHHINGGG???????? ARGH.. I am flagger blasted game designers are so blinded.
I actually agree with this.......to me step loss isn't Just men killed/tanks knocked out it also represents failing morale and men routing/tanks crews bailing.
Totally out of ammo Panthers cone under heavy barrage from KV2's should see some crews bailing and fleeing. Since they no longer have the minimum kill chance (5%?) They had in PC1 you can end up with totally surrounded, out of ammo and out of fuel enemy units you cant remove.
Currently you need to do at least 1 kill to make a unit retreat . Maybe fully surpassed units should always retreat (entrenchment levels to still work though) if they come under attack?
Or maybe a unit in this situation should have a malus to GD? It's not like they can use their guns to keep the enemy at bay!
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:07 pm
by Hemi
Mordan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:09 pm
ErissN6 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:32 am
The KV-2 was made to shoot at concrete, not against metal, it's a self-propelled gun, not a combat tank, despite it's an heavy tank.
yes well ok. but what happens if they shoot HE shells on Panthers without ammo? Do you think the Panther crew will survive a rain of HE shells? KV2 commanders see the panther are out of ammo.. do you think they wont come close and blast away the panther?
Its completely ridiculous.
I totally don't like the gameplay mechanics.. and I don't see how a WOT gamer would enjoy this game. I stopped playing. I did the puzzles.. but even those were not funny with the mechanics. That's where i saw a KV2 does nothing to the Panther puzzle.
I agree with KV2 doing nothing to a fully unsuppressed combat ready panther battalion.. but a fully suppressed without ammo? Bullshit! they should at least be able to chip it away and force them to retreat!!! KV2 attack does NOOOOOOOOOTHHHINGGG???????? ARGH.. I am flagger blasted game designers are so blinded.
I'm a WOT gamer and I love the game. Talk about unrealistic, the KV2 couldn't fire it's gun going up or downhill as you couldn't turn the turret unless it was on flat ground. Going uphill the turret would swing itself to the rear because you know, gravity. And the doom turtle was a lot faster,
They're games. Apply salt liberally.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:12 pm
by Nalikill
Hemi wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:07 pm
. And the doom turtle was a lot faster,
Doom turtle. Lol. We need a mode / mod that changes all the names to meme names.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:13 pm
by gunnergoz
It is an abstract game, not a simulation. As wisely noted by another, apply salt liberally when playing, or it is the player who will end up salty.
Re: A KV-2 vs a completely suppressed Panther
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:46 pm
by PoorOldSpike
Mordan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:09 pmyes well ok. but what happens if they shoot HE shells on Panthers without ammo? Do you think the Panther crew will survive a rain of HE shells?
Ah, but historically the KV-2's big 152mm HE-chucking gun was so inaccurate that it could rarely hit a Panther or anything else.
However a near-miss should certainly rattle the crews brains and suppress them a bit, just like arty bombardments usually do.