The Italian Arsenal - Weapon Shop - Bargains & Discussion

[hurly]

Hi Folks

Feldmarschall goose is in the Final Stages of his Blind Playthrough of The Grand Campaign East.
While the Fighting Action and Tactical Planning is blind, it would be naive to think his knowledge about German Units was completely blind from the Start of GC 39 as well.
This is not stated to put down his glorious effort in any way, but it is certainly helpful to know a bit about units, their qualities or lack of, the Bang for the Buck, Upgrade Pathes and Possibilities, all these little Things.

He already announced that his next project will be a b Blind Playthrough of the Italian Challenge of Afrika on Rommel Difficulty (which basically means half the Prestige and no or better very few Resources to waste) I have no doubt that he would master Afrika Korps on Rommel and Blind easily. But doing that there is no way he can do the Italian Challenge in Blind Fashion after. So there is only one Possibility. Go Italian Style First, which means you can buy new Units only from the Italian Units List (Upgrading any other Units, Captured, Found or given by the Game can still be upgraded into German Units as usual)

Me thinketh it is a bit unfair to let a Fellow General run into this Campaign basically not knowing a lot about his arsenal at hand from the Arms Dealer and offer some things I have learned. Thats also the reason I post it in the AAR Section. Call it an AAR for Units and not Scenarios if you will

So after your Transformation to Duce Benito goose-olini here is your arsenal, just Italian Units, Prizes, Assets or Flaws they have, Upgrade Pathes and no (or better almost no Spoilers)


I will make a post for each Weapons Category
Infantry,
Tanks,
Recon,
Anti Tank,
Artillery,
Anti Air,
Fighters,
Tac Bombers
Strat Bombers

first to keep the Info part on top of the thread, but encourage any member of the community to discuss, offer opinions, share their knowledge and expereince in the thread below that. So it's always possible to alter a few things or add common knowledge to the Unit descriptions later and have the essential info still on Top. Only one Rule of Thumb should apply, avoid Spoilers !!! Or better avoid them as good as you can to not diminish the fun for the ones who may be encouraged to walk the same Path as goose-olini.

A slip of the tongue here or there will be no problem with this format as the core info is on Top (hopefully Spoiler free) and one who does not want to get leaked too much intel can easily avoid the bottom of the thread if there will be any bottom at all

So here we go starting with a very subjective Interpretation from me (which can be easily adjusted later with the collected wisdom of the community hopefully finding its way in here) This will also not be complete (or even empty) on some Weapon Category Posts for a Few Days, but although the Italian Arsenal is not overly big, its still too much to fill all Categories in one go. So be patient Thank You

[hurly]

Infantry



Let me say a few things first. I'm not a player that develops Infantry very carefully. I enjoy having a few Units that serve as a workhorse in Combat. My Infantry Units take substantial losses regularly I just make sure they will not be killed off completely. In Deployment Phase Infantry Units seldom get Elite Replacement and because of my Style Infantry seldom tops the 3 Star Level, maybe some do down the Road as they pick up valuable Heroes who increases their Efficiency. So on to the First unit


The Numbers speak for themselves, Italian Infantry is dirt cheap (or not when you consider their numbers are not really better than the German Volkssturm which cost 10 Prestige less). You get 2 Italian Infantry Units in the Starting Lineup of Afrika Korps. I made sure to keep them Alive in Scenario 1 and then they are quickly upgraded.

Bottom Line i can't tell a lot of things about Italian Infantry most of my Experience is with Auxiliary Units granted by the Game. I consider them as an OUT in terms of Combat Value per Turn, I won't buy a new one in Afrika Korps. Other Players with a different Style might have other Views though

Speaking of Upgrades Most Italian Units are in the same Family as almost all Units from the Same Group. Only a few are not and I will tell you which ones. But here in the Infantry Category ANY Unit is in Family with Each other so basically you can swith from Infantry to Cavalry to Alpini to Bersaglieri without paying a lot of Prestigefor it.




The Bersaglieri feature pretty good basic Numbers for their Cost and they are my Choice of the Italian Infantry. Numbers indicate they are a little bit better than German Infantry or Fallschirmjäger or Gebirgsjäger. I''m not completely sure about it. There are Units in Panzer Corps that seem to Underperform their Rating Values and imho this true for all Italian Infantry. This Evaluation might be a bit unfair, as I Scratch the 3 Italian Infantry Unit's (2 Infantry 1 Bersaglieri) about half the Time as the 2 granted German Grenadiers with Halftrack Transport are good enough to satisfy my need for Infantry in the Afrika Korps Campaign. Again Players that shelter and develop their Infantry Units carefully may see better results and if you have other impressions just go ahead and tell me. Nothing I say should be carved in stone and I would happily accept any other Experiences and adjust the Evaluation here accordingly




The Alpini are the Italian Gebirgsjäger Units, Values are very comparable so maybe they are just as Good perhaps even a bit better than the German Units. And there are many Gebirgsjäger Worshippers around here, so maybe this Unit is a hidden Gem I missed. I did not use the Alpinis a lot during Afrika Korps, just in a Few Scenarios with High Mountaing Action (guess by hte Scenario Names which one this might be )
So again the Start of the Italian Weapon Shop Category Infantry is bit slow.


The Cavalry might be an interesting option in Scenarios where a lot of Ground has to be covered (there are quite a few of them) and and you don't wanna buckle up 50 Prestige for a Truck. Also they have 3 Spotting Range and can serve as Scouting Units. Cavalry is very weak defensively though so they are pretty vulnerable to surprise attacks. I can't say I have memories of satisfyng Results with Cavalry at all and so definitely did not use them lately in my playthroughs


The Bersaglierei are the only Italian Infantry Unit with a 1943 upgrade, the come with good looking Ratings and a reasonable Price. By the Time the Option comes up, my units are so much behind the Eight Ball in Experience and Heroes awarded, that they never exceeded the Role of Fillers or Clean Up Units in the whole Afrika Campaign.

Like I said, maybe my advice on Italian Infantry is pretty questionable. But I never really needed any of them nor really gave them a chance so this category is kind of a Dark Horse Section

Any other Opinions welcome please discuss in the thread below and I will be very humble and happy to accept wisdom from others and of course will adjust the text to the common knowledge gathered here

[hurly]

Tanks


so in a Game Line called Panzer Corps Tanks are a special Category for sure
Italian Tanks are all in Family you can upgrade and downgrade them in Family for low amounts of Prestige and they have a pretty straight and consequent Line of New Models just like the Panzer III series. On the Downside this is basically what you get a Panzer III series maybe always a bit late on the battlefield and never a Unit someone is really afraid of, but still quite versatile and helpful if used correctly


I don't wanna lose too many words on these 3. Afrika Korps enters the fray in March 41 and by then these 3 are already outdated and by then you will not buy a Panzer I or Panzer II for the Wehrmacht or Grand Campaign either. And thats what you basically see here
The L3 is a Panzer 1b Level Unit, the L6 a Panzer IIc Level. The M 11/39 is somewhere below the Range of a a Panzer III F Unit and you are blessed with 2 M13/40 Tanks to start with so


this is the Italian Tank Force you deal with. All are in Family so the yearly upgrade is cheap and even after the Line is outdated the Next Generation Tank is in Family
These Tanks are definitely weaker than the Stuff Germany offers at the corresponding time, their values always a notch below, they are slower than the German Units but the British Heavy Counterparts are no Race Cars either. These can stand their Ground vs Light Tanks as a Cruiser or Crusader, but i won't engage in open field Tank Battles with them anyway. All models from the M13 onwards have an AA weapon on board, so they are not exactly Prime Targets for British Air Raids and overall these Tanks are ok and certainly not by any means "Rolling Coffins" which was the not very respectful nickname German troops gave them. As you see you will get yearly upgrades which are minor but useful for these tanks and there are 2 more and better Upgrades lurking in the Distant Future one in Family the other not but I cann assure you is not worse than some of the German tanks at the time
If the original starting Tank Squads are still alive then, with Experience and Heroes onboard, you won't fret about weak Italian Tanks by then anymore (if you saved enough funds to acquire them, which is another story)

Bang for the Buck Factor
These Tanks beginning with the M13 are not bad, certainly not Units that scare the Shit out of anyone, and I would restrain from too many open Terrain Tank Head to Head Action. But as secondary Units they do the Job. Before you buy any more of them think about that, you get a Panzer III and a Panzer ii (soon to be a Flamm) plus 2 M13/41 to start with. Prestige is hard to come by and sommewhere around late 43 the Costs of Units explode as usual. So with 4 regular Tanks in the Starting LineUp and SE Units that will be awarded are all German Units. How many more (if at all) of these Italian Tanks do you really need early on ?

Tank Update

The P26/40 is in Family with all Italian Tanks and available in Persia (Scenario 15) I think it is up to par with a Top of the Line Panzer III (hard to evaluate it exactly as heroes awarded have a significant effect)
The Italian Panther is not in Family with other Italian Tanks, but exactly the same Unit as the German Edition available in On the Way to India (Scenario 19), so the Italian Tanks can be a bonafide Tank at least for the Final 2 Scenarios (if there is enough Prestige in the Account, would prefer an update of any Italian Tank to a Panther before I go Tiger to Tiger 2 or even Panzer III X to Tiger 1)


So much for Tanks in the Italian Arsenal

[hurly]

Recon


this one is available from the Start and you get one as Auxiliary so you can see how it performs
It's not a bad Unit like all 3 Italian Recons. This one has an upgrade in the Family that's ok as well


we are talking about this version. It is ok as well, nothing earth shattering but do you really want more Recon than the German unit you are granted early on ? Prestige is low especially early on so better wait for

this buggy
It looks funny, it's (Anti Air Attack sticks ou) and it comes with a twist.
As you can see this a Unit with a switch. It switches into an Infantry Unit with Ratings very similar to a Bersaglieri.
And I Think this Unit is a Real Overperfomer. The Infantry is quite tough, the Car Mode is ok in Recon Terms so don't engage with tanks in the open.
It levels up pretty fast, it seems to attract heroes quickly

Downside this one is unique no upgrade path no in family upgrades like so many other Italian Units, it costs the whole Prize and justifies it


Bang for the Buck

The Sahariana is not necessarily a MUST HAVE Unit, but in the wide area of Deserts (where there are several things to explore along the way) this is nice Comrade to have and its versatitlity is great. This should be your 2 nd Recon if you want one, or the 3rd
Not available from the beginning but soon enough to have a lot of fun with it.

[hurly]

Anti Tank

Anti Tank is another Weapons Category I see rather controversial. I want my tanks to carry the load in a battle. And self propelled AT is basically a Tank that is specialized on Hard Attacks but weak vs Soft Targets even in the open. High Level AT can be very powerful units though, but they need some time and shelter to get there. I am not sure a 20 Scenario Campaign where Self Propelled AT appears about half way through the Run is worth the hassle by then



The towed AT gun is basically the same as the German 3,7cm Pak with a little bit more Soft Attack and a bit more initiative
I has no in the family upgrade options available. And you get a 3,7cm German Pak for free to start with. Don't think more is a good idea



The first self propelled Anti Tank unit makes its debut in August 42 which is about half way through the campaign. It has low hard attack, low initiative, ok defense and is cheap, you can upgrade it into the M41 unit which appears one scenario later. So don't bother at all for it



Here we have it maybe the most controversial Unit in the Arsenal. It is quite Slow but has a huge Hard Attack Value, Ammo is quite low though and the Price is not very steep. I heard a few guys love this unit as a Finisher of Heavy British Tanks. Either i can't make this baby work correctly or (maybe I'm biased) it is just not worth the trouble. Don't know
It has only 4 Ammo the Defense Values are atrocious, even more vs air attacks than on the Ground. It seems to attract enemy Air Attacks so maybe its quite good for setting up Fighter Traps (I'm not very good with that tactic) but you can't really get into an open battle with about anything despite the High Hard Attack and so I feel its not worth the hassle to pony up the Prestige for such a one dimensional thing you basically have to shelter all the time just to get in a devasting blow on a unit already totally surpressed and probably ready to surrender anyway.
My 2 cents on the Unit
Save your precious Resources and leave your hands off
I would really like to hear other opinions on that one, so convince me it's any good

[hurly]

Artillery




I leave the pix of the 3 different units of Italian towed arty together in line.
Compare the Values to the German towed Arty they are exactly the same, so I assume they are identical RoF for the 7,5cm Versions are a matching 11 but RoF for the 14,9cm Version is 9 compared to the 8 the German 15cm is listed in the Equipment110.pdf file you can download somewhere around here. File is from 2013 and some values might be different now I don't know maybe someone who knows more about the Game can tell us the exact and actual RoF for all Arty Units

Still Bottom line is for towed Arty, use your experience from German units to evaluate the Italian ones, it probably can't get closer than that


What brings us to this ugly Duckling. It does not look dangerous at all, and maybe it's not a real killer, but it has a Rof of 11 it is reasonably mobile good enough to keep up with the tanks and while its Attack Values seem to be modest it's a minekiller and fortkiller. It has a Range of 2 and an adequate defense as well. Summed up this a a kind of StuG with lower ammo and bigger range.
Very usable very effective and a Real Gem for the Price of 206
I love this unit and I'm sure anyone who uses it loves it as well. It is not in the Family path of towed Italian Arty but the Price is more than Right anyway. It comes along in Oktober 41 and its useful til the end
And I don't want to spoil anything yet but it has 2 more even better Upgrades in Family by 1943 (I will not yet reveal them)

Bang for the Buck Factor
Huge --- easily one of the best Units the Italians can offer, you will not be disappointed and it Levels up pretty fast. I entertained up to 4 of these at a time on one Run so you see I love these ugly things

Artillery Update

The M43/105 is the in Family Upgrade for the Self Propelled M40/75 (which is still pretty good in the later Scenarios) but a significant upgrade in Firepower and Ammo. Certainly worth the Prize for an Upgrade and available in Persia (Scenario 15 --- Note in Scenario 15 there is a good upgrade for Tanks, Fighters and Artillery, so you might not be able to afford upgrades on anything at once, but we can discuss that when you are there)
The Italian Brummbär is one of the German Units becoming available for Italy late in the Campaign.
This one is special as it is in Family with the SP Italian Artillery, so "upgrade" is pretty cheap.
I put "upgrade" in Quote Marks as it is a matter of preference if you like the Brummbär or the M43/105 better. I prefer the M43/105. Note that all SP Italian Arty has the Bunkerbusting Trait


This is the End of the Line for Italian Artillery

[hurly]

Anti Air

goose-olini is already on his way to Afrika so I have to hurry a bit, I can update Info even further later on


I did not bother to buy any of these 2 AA Units although the 75mm can be ok but the price is just so close to the 90 mm i never tried.
Had both units as auxiliaries somewhere in other campaigns. They did ok but never lasted long
Both are in family with the Big Unit so upgrading is no Money Grave


Now to this Sweetheart
It is an 8.8 Clone almost the same values as the German Original, performs well just as the original, is a bit cheaper, has a cheaper transport, one Ammo less and little bit weaker in AT Mode on Paper and has no Upgrade

Bang for the Buck
It's almost identical to the German 8.8. If you want an an AA unit beside the Mobile German Unit you have a given.
This is it. Can't go wrong with

[hurly]

Fighters


The Falco is the one Unit in this Category I can't say too much about. It is already outdated once you start Afrika Korps so even though its quite cheap, you will probably not buy one either. It is also without an Upgrade Path, so another Reason not to try one of these Weak Valued Fighters


The Re 2000 --- I remember them from the GC West and here in Afrika Korps you will get your Share of Auxiliary RE 2000's
I think it's not a bad plane for the Time seems to be rather effective for a Fighter vs Ground Units.
But the Game basically takes the decison to buy one away from you as it awards you a Saetta at the Start and on Rommel you may not have enough nuts to spend on a second Fighter early on. By then you see that the RE has no upgrade Path which makes it a bit expensive to switch sooner or later so


the Macchi MC Series is the Way to go Saetta is introduced in 39 and available from the Start of Afrika Korps and the Upgrades Folgore in 41 and Veltro in 42 appear regularly and are in Family Upgrades. The Family Path ends with the Veltro though and i'm not ready to reveal what more is in the pipe in 43 and 44 except the Fact there will be NEW Units later on

The MC Series Fighters are all ok, but certainly a tad below the German or British State of the Art Modell in respective years, but also no walkovers for them. Still I won't confront a British Fighter in a One on One Battle with them. If i have to draw a Bottom Line on the MC Series. Good for giving Air Cover to Bombers and Ground Units. Not exactly the Units to accomplish Air Superiority, basically always a Year behind the British and German Modells available, which can be made up with experience and Heroes though


Just added the 2 missing Fighters of the Italian Arsenal
In terms of Afrika Korps Scenarios both are available pretty late in the Campaign (Total 20 Scenarios).
The Centauro in Scenario #15 Persia the Bf 109 K in Scenario #19 On the Road to India.
Both are not in the Family with any other Unit so you have to pay the Full Price for them
As there is already a lively discussion on the Afrika Korps Italian Challenge on Rommel AAR I will not elaborate on them here and just copy the whole discussion to this thread (http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 08#p643008) so anyone interested can join in and discuss it here where I think it is more fitting anyway

[hurly]

Tactical Bombers



I somehow like the Breda from the very few encounters I had with it in Afrika Korps, GC West and I think in Sealion Plus there is one as well.
These were almost all auxiliary units with low expectations involved and their performance were ok if not a tad better.
The Price of 168 PP is very nice and so it might be an option for someone who is low on Prestige.
Or someone who gets one awarded in a scenario and forgets to upgrade it for the next one
Speaking of Upgrading. this one is in family with



This one for just 111 PP more you get
maybe the Italian Crownjewel Unit
The ratings are ok and the Fuel sticks out as well, but ignore the ratings for now
These Planes are OVERPERFORMERS, they hit a lot harder than the Numbers make you believe they can. they Level UP really quick, they can take a beating by enemy Fighters, they are deadly vs subs, they are Dirt Cheap, they will be the backbone of your Airforce and they seem to attract heroes.
It also helps that you will get awarded One with a nice Hero already onboard.


Bang for the Buck
This one Unit you should buy at least once. It's available from the Start, it's usable til the End, it will Level Up to 15 pretty quick and at a base Price of 279 you can afford overstrength even on Rommel. It will be your Italian Version of the Stuka and a real workhorse Unit that leads the campaign in Kills soon

Tac Bomber Update

The German HS 129 becoming available in Arabia (Scenario 17). It did not make a big impression with me in the Grand Campaign East or West. But here in Afrika Korps vs British Tanks most of them without Air Defense ability it was quite impressive even as a late added Green Unit. Worth the Prize for sure, not sure if I would upgrade a SM79 to a HS 129. I think keeping all Bombers still alive at this Point of the Campaign is essential but for the same Cost you can have the Sm79 + a Green HS 129. You may have open Slots for new Units anyway as the Number of Core Slots rises significantly in the last 6 Scenarios

[hurly]

Strategical Bombers




This Category is pretty easy to evaluate

The Piaggio is available May 41, it does not get (or need) any upgrades til the end of war, its pretty cheap, has great Range because of a huge amount of Fuel and hits pretty hard for a Level Bomber. Downside is the low amount of Ammo and that is not very good defensively (who let's a Level Bomber operate unprotected by Fighters anyway ?) I thinks the Piaggio is way better than any early 41 Level Bomber and can compete with any engine driven German Level Bomber til the End of War. A Real Bargain and one of the GEMS of the Italian Units. I would even consider them as Core Units in the German Grand Campaign as they can hold their own compared to any German Level Bomber

Assets
Range 220 Fuel
Prize 426 PP
Good Attack Values with the Impression to be an OVERPERFORMING Unit
Gather Experience pretty quick as all Level Bombers do

Flaws
Ammo just 5 Rounds (you can't have all good things for the Prize)
Defense Defense Values are a bit on the Lowish Side, and they seem to get hit hard ocassionally

Bang for the Buck Factor
Excellent a Must Have Unit in Afrika Korps

[hurly]

All Kind of Things Utility Post


all kind of Italian Units that can be equipped with a transposrt have the same Opel Blitz Clone Truck (exact identical values and prize)
No other options, not for Infantry nor for the heavy 90mm Anti Air Gun



while making the screenshot I realized for the first time the Truck has Ammo listed as 4 !
The German Opel Blitz does as well. I have no idea why as I can't recall a Truck of any kind shooting back at me or at them.
Just curious what happens when the Ammo Count ever reaches Zero, does the Truck then not shoot back twice ?



Note for the Players playing Afrika Korps after especially GC EAST. This campaign is not about outlandish Unit strength or absurde Hordes of opponents.
This is the Story of Rommel vs Montgomery. 2 of the more charismatic and innovative Tacticians in WW 2. So expect a lot of unexpected things and think off the Board from time to time as well. Just catch the different Spirit of this Campaign and you will enjoy it even more


I do not plan to add in the German Origin Units that are available in later years for the Italian Arsenal as they have exactly the same ratings as in the German Listing cause I feel this will already be some kind of Spoiler, but it is easily possible if the community thinks it's ok.
Even though I have opened the Thread I don't wanna be the Soup Nazi here and pretend to be deaf to the collective Wisdom here on the Board, moreso as

i'm like a leaf on the wind watch how i soar

*more coming soon

[goose_2]

I am just now getting to take a look at this.
Hurly, this is an incredible dossier and write up on each of these units.
This is very commendable and I very much appreciate the time and thought that you have put into this.
I tip my hat to you good sir.
Now I shall look at each unit class and make comments where necessary.

[goose_2]

Infantry



Let me say a few things first. I'm not a player that develops Infantry very carefully. I enjoy having a few Units that serve as a workhorse in Combat. My Infantry Units take substantial losses regularly I just make sure they will not be killed off completely. In Deployment Phase Infantry Units seldom get Elite Replacement and because of my Style Infantry seldom tops the 3 Star Level, maybe some do down the Road as they pick up valuable Heroes who increases their Efficiency. So on to the First unit


The Numbers speak for themselves, Italian Infantry is dirt cheap (or not when you consider their numbers are not really better than the German Volkssturm which cost 10 Prestige less). You get 2 Italian Infantry Units in the Starting Lineup of Afrika Korps. I made sure to keep them Alive in Scenario 1 and then they are quickly upgraded.

Bottom Line i can't tell a lot of things about Italian Infantry most of my Experience is with Auxiliary Units granted by the Game. I consider them as an OUT in terms of Combat Value per Turn, I won't buy a new one in Afrika Korps. Other Players with a different Style might have other Views though

Speaking of Upgrades Most Italian Units are in the same Family as almost all Units from the Same Group. Only a few are not and I will tell you which ones. But here in the Infantry Category ANY Unit is in Family with Each other so basically you can swith from Infantry to Cavalry to Alpini to Bersaglieri without paying a lot of Prestigefor it.




The Bersaglieri feature pretty good basic Numbers for their Cost and they are my Choice of the Italian Infantry. Numbers indicate they are a little bit better than German Infantry or Fallschirmjäger or Gebirgsjäger. I''m not completely sure about it. There are Units in Panzer Corps that seem to Underperform their Rating Values and imho this true for all Italian Infantry. This Evaluation might be a bit unfair, as I Scratch the 3 Italian Infantry Unit's (2 Infantry 1 Bersaglieri) about half the Time as the 2 granted German Grenadiers with Halftrack Transport are good enough to satisfy my need for Infantry in the Afrika Korps Campaign. Again Players that shelter and develop their Infantry Units carefully may see better results and if you have other impressions just go ahead and tell me. Nothing I say should be carved in stone and I would happily accept any other Experiences and adjust the Evaluation here accordingly




The Alpini are the Italian Gebirgsjäger Units, Values are very comparable so maybe they are just as Good perhaps even a bit better than the German Units. And there are many Gebirgsjäger Worshippers around here, so maybe this Unit is a hidden Gem I missed. I did not use the Alpinis a lot during Afrika Korps, just in a Few Scenarios with High Mountaing Action (guess by hte Scenario Names which one this might be )
So again the Start of the Italian Weapon Shop Category Infantry is bit slow.


The Cavalry might be an interesting option in Scenarios where a lot of Ground has to be covered (there are quite a few of them) and and you don't wanna buckle up 50 Prestige for a Truck. Also they have 3 Spotting Range and can serve as Scouting Units. Cavalry is very weak defensively though so they are pretty vulnerable to surprise attacks. I can't say I have memories of satisfyng Results with Cavalry at all and so definitely did not use them lately in my playthroughs


The Bersaglierei are the only Italian Infantry Unit with a 1943 upgrade, the come with good looking Ratings and a reasonable Price. By the Time the Option comes up, my units are so much behind the Eight Ball in Experience and Heroes awarded, that they never exceeded the Role of Fillers or Clean Up Units in the whole Afrika Campaign.

Like I said, maybe my advice on Italian Infantry is pretty questionable. But I never really needed any of them nor really gave them a chance so this category is kind of a Dark Horse Section

Any other Opinions welcome please discuss in the thread below and I will be very humble and happy to accept wisdom from others and of course will adjust the text to the common knowledge gathered here

After analyzing your thoughts and evaluation of each infantry unit, here are my thoughts.
Since my style is more aggressive and can be costly on an already costly playthrough I believe I will start with cheap Italian infantry units to more easily buy replacements for them and upgrade them to a better unit once I have built up some nice experience and once the first hero is given, making them more valuable.
I do like the thought behing Bersagleiri and those look like excellent units, which a majority will be upgraded to, but I am also a huge fan of Alipini and their awesome Mt. travel ability.
I have had much success with Oleh Dir and a Mt. Troop that was awarded a +1 Movement hero, they along with Freidrich Pein as a Grenadier have been my Super infantry team that helped save me in Berlin.

So final thoughts, I see myself using more Italian infantry at first unless I am not able to upgrade them for nothing but the upgrade cost, if I have to buy the unit all over again then I will be buying Alpini and Bersagleiri without trucks.

What are your thoughts on trucks or no trucks?

I usually do not buy trucks as they are unnecessary and costly in my experience of playing the Grand Campaign except on my Pioniere and Grenadier units as their 2 movement is horrible.

[goose_2]

Recon


this one is available from the Start and you get one as Auxiliary so you can see how it performs
It's not a bad Unit like all 3 Italian Recons. This one has an upgrade in the Family that's ok as well


we are talking about this version. It is ok as well, nothing earth shattering but do you really want more Recon than the German unit you are granted early on ? Prestige is low especially early on so better wait for

this buggy
It looks funny, it's (Anti Air Attack sticks ou) and it comes with a twist.
As you can see this a Unit with a switch. It switches into an Infantry Unit with Ratings very similar to a Bersaglieri.
And I Think this Unit is a Real Overperfomer. The Infantry is quite tough, the Car Mode is ok in Recon Terms so don't engage with tanks in the open.
It levels up pretty fast, it seems to attract heroes quickly

Downside this one is unique no upgrade path no in family upgrades like so many other Italian Units, it costs the whole Prize and justifies it


Bang for the Buck

The Sahariana is not necessarily a MUST HAVE Unit, but in the wide area of Deserts (where there are several things to explore along the way) this is nice Comrade to have and its versatitlity is great. This should be your 2 nd Recon if you want one, or the 3rd
Not avai8lable from the beginning but soon enough to have a lot of fun with it.


*more coming soon

There is no argument or thought process I believe in this, it is Sahariana all the way.

[goose_2]

All Kind of Things Utility Post


all kind of Italian Units that can be equipped with a transposrt have the same Opel Blitz Clone Truck (exact identical values and prize)
No other options, not for Infantry nor for the heavy 90mm Anti Air Gun



while making the screenshot I realized for the first time the Truck has Ammo listed as 4 !
The German Opel Blitz does as well. I have no idea why as I can't recall a Truck of any kind shooting back at me or at them.
Just curious what happens when the Ammo Count ever reaches Zero, does the Truck then not shoot back twice ?



Note for the Players playing Afrika Korps after especially GC EAST. This campaign is not about outlandish Unit strength or absurde Hordes of opponents.
This is the Story of Rommel vs Montgomery. 2 of the more charismatic and innovative Tacticians in WW 2. So expect a lot of unexpected things and think off the Board from time to time as well. Just catch the different Spirit of this Campaign and you will enjoy it even more


I do not plan to add in the German Origin Units that are available in later years for the Italian Arsenal as they have exactly the same ratings as in the German Listing cause I feel this will already be some kind of Spoiler, but it is easily possible if the community thinks it's ok.
Even though I have opened the Thread I don't wanna be the Soup Nazi here and pretend to be deaf to the collective Wisdom here on the Board, moreso as

i'm like a leaf on the wind watch how i soar

*more coming soon

I will actually post my question on trucks here:
What are your thoughts on trucks or no trucks?

I usually do not buy trucks as they are unnecessary and costly in my experience of playing the Grand Campaign except on my Pioniere and Grenadier units as their 2 movement is horrible.

[goose_2]

Tanks


so in a Game Line called Panzer Corps Tanks are a special Category for sure
Italian Tanks are all in Family you can upgrade and downgrade them in Family for low amounts of Prestige and they have a pretty straight and consequent Line of New Models just like the Panzer III series. On the Downside this is basically what you get a Panzer III series maybe always a bit late on the battlefield and never a Unit someone is really afraid of, but still quite versatile and helpful if used correctly


I don't wanna lose too many words on these 3. Afrika Korps enters the fray in March 41 and by then these 3 are already outdated and by then you will not buy a Panzer I or Panzer II for the Wehrmacht or Grand Campaign either. And thats what you basically see here
The L3 is a Panzer 1b Level Unit, the L6 a Panzer IIc Level. The M 11/39 is somewhere below the Range of a a Panzer III F Unit and you are blessed with 2 M13/40 Tanks to start with so


this is the Italian Tank Force you deal with. All are in Family so the yearly upgrade is cheap and even after the Line is outdated the Next Generation Tank is in Family
These Tanks are definitely weaker than the Stuff Germany offers at the corresponding time, their values always a notch below, they are slower than the German Units but the British Heavy Counterparts are no Race Cars either. These can stand their Ground vs Light Tanks as a Cruiser or Crusader, but i won't engage in open field Tank Battles with them anyway. All models from the M13 onwards have an AA weapon on board, so they are not exactly Prime Targets for British Air Raids and overall these Tanks are ok and certainly not by any means "Rolling Coffins" which was the not very respectful nickname German troops gave them. As you see you will get yearly upgrades which are minor but useful for these tanks and there are 2 more and better Upgrades lurking in the Distant Future one in Family the other not but I cann assure you is not worse than some of the German tanks at the time
If the original starting Tank Squads aree still alive then, with Experience and Heroes onboard, you won't fret about weak Italian Tanks by then anymore (if you saved enough funds to acquire them, which is another story)

Bang for the Buck Factor
These Tanks beginning with the M13 are not bad, certainly not Units that scare the Shit out of anyone, and I would restrain from too many open Terrain Tank Head to Head Action. But as secondary Units they do the Job. Before you buy any more of them think about that, you get a Panzer III and a Panzer ii (soon to be a Flamm) plus 2 M13/41 to start with. Prestige is hard to come by and sommewhere around late 43 the Costs of Units explode as usual. So with 4 regular Tanks in the Starting LineUp and SE Units that will be awarded are all German Units. How many more (if at all) of these Italian Tanks do you really need early on ?





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Thanks for this detail on each of their capabilities. Since I lost one of the initial Italian Tanks my thoughts on the Italian tanks capabilities is less than stellar, as such I will be buying and utilizing very little of the Italian variety as I will simply hope for either SE Panzers or utilize other Italian units, I see myself maybe buying one more, but I will have to build up some confidence or watch other people's scenarios like Braccada's to see how he play's the scenario after I play my blind playthrough.

That is my thoughts on Italian tanks.
Correct me where I am wrong.

[goose_2]

Anti Tank

Anti Tank is another Weapons Category I see rather controversial. I want my tanks to carry the load in a battle. And self propelled AT is basically a Tank that is specialized on Hard Attacks but weak vs Soft Targets even in the open. High Level AT can be very powerful units though, but they need some time and shelter to get there. I am not sure a 20 Scenario Campaign where Self Propelled AT appears about half way through the Run is worth the hassle by then



The towed AT gun is basically the same as the German 3,7cm Pak with a little bit more Soft Attack and a bit more initiative
I has no in the family upgrade options available. And you get a 3,7cm German Pak for free to start with. Don't think more is a good idea



The first self propelled Anti Tank unit makes its debut in August 42 which is about half way through the campaign. It has low hard attack, low initiative, ok defense and is cheap, you can upgrade it into the M41 unit which appears one scenario later. So don't bother at all for it



Here we have it maybe the most controversial Unit in the Arsenal. It is quite Slow but has a huge Hard Attack Value, Ammo is quite low though and the Price is not very steep. I heard a few guys love this unit as a Finisher of Heavy British Tanks. Either i can't make this baby work correctly or (maybe I'm biased) it is just not worth the trouble. Don't know
It has only 4 Ammo the Defense Values are atrocious, even more vs air attacks than on the Ground. It seems to attract enemy Air Attacks so maybe its quite good for setting up Fighter Traps (I'm not very good with that tactic) but you can't really get into an open battle with about anything despite the High Hard Attack and so I feel its not worth the hassle to pony up the Prestige for such a one dimensional thing you basically have to shelter all the time just to get in a devasting blow on a unit already totally surpressed and probably ready to surrender anyway.
My 2 cents on the Unit
Save your precious Resources and leave your hands off
I would really like to hear other opinions on that one, so convince me it's any good

*more coming soon

I have loved the M41M in multiplayer, but I have not had much skill with building them up in my Grand Campaigns as only had 2 experienced Ant tank units going into Berlin.
I may try but will probably take your advice on this one, unless I see Braccada is doing something else with success than i might reconsider.

[goose_2]

Artillery




I leave the pix of the 3 different units of Italian towed arty together in line.
Compare the Values to the German towed Arty they are exactly the same, so I assume they are identical RoF for the 7,5cm Versions are a matching 11 but RoF for the 14,9cm Version is 9 compared to the 8 the German 15cm is listed in the Equipment110.pdf file you can download somewhere around here. File is from 2013 and some values might be different now I don't know maybe someone who knows more about the Game can tell us the exact and actual RoF for all Arty Units

Still Bottom line is for towed Arty, use your experience from German units to evaluate the Italian ones, it probably can't get closer than that


What brings us to this ugly Duckling. It does not look dangerous at all, and maybe it's not a real killer, but it has a Rof of 11 it is reasonably mobile good enough to keep up with the tanks and while its Attack Values seem to be modest it's a minekiller and fortkiller. It has a Range of 2 and an adequate defense as well. Summed up this a a kind of StuG with lower ammo and bigger range.
Very usable very effective and a Real Gem for the Price of 206
I love this unit and I'm sure anyone who uses it loves it as well. It is not in the Family path of towed Italian Arty but the Price is more than Right anyway. It comes along in Oktober 41 and its useful til the end
And I don't want to spoil anything yet but it has 2 more even better Upgrades in Family by 1943 (I will not yet reveal them)

Bang for the Buck Factor
Huge --- easily one of the best Units the Italians can offer, you will not be disappointed and it Levels up pretty fast. I entertained up to 4 of these at a time on one Run so you see I love these ugly things




*more coming soon

Arty is my animal, I would not no how to play this game without it, as such I never should have earned that Steam Achievement about not using artillery as it is my nearest and dearest friend, in multiplayer and in single player.

That self propelled arty and the way you sold it is outstanding, one question and it will seal the deal with it being the majority of my arty line up, can it switch to Anti-tank?

Either way I will still use it, but the way you sell it I may try and upgrade all my towed arty's to that arty to maximize my suppression of the enemy.

[goose_2]

Anti Air

goose-olini is already on his way to Afrika so I have to hurry a bit, I can update Info even further later on


I did bother to buy any of these 2 AA Units although the the 70mm can be ok but the price is just so close to the 90 mm i never tried.
Had both units as auxiliaries somewhere in other campaigns. They did ok but never lasted long
Both are in family with the Big Unit so upgrading is no Money Grave


Now to this Sweetheart
It is an 8.8 Clone almost the same values as the German Original, performs well just as the original, is a bit cheaper, has a cheaper transport, one Ammo less and little bit weaker in AT Mode on Paper and has no Upgrade

Bang for the Buck
It's almost identical to the German 8.8. If you want an an AA unit beside the Mobile German Unit you are given.
This is it. Can't go wrong with




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I will consdier buying one of those 88's but not at this stage of the war.

[goose_2]

Fighters


The Falco is the one Unit in this Category I can't say too much about. It is already outdated once you start Afrika Korps so even though its quite cheap, you will probably not buy one either. It is also without an Upgrade Path, so another Reason not to try one of these Weak Valued Fighters


The Re 2000 --- I remember them from the GC West and here in Afrika Korps you will get your Share of Auxiliary RE 2000's
I think it's not a bad plane for the Time seems to be rather effective for a Fighter vs Ground Units.
But the Game basically takes the decison to buy one away from you as it awards you a Saetta at the Start and on Rommel you may not have enough nuts to spend on a second Fighter early on. By then you see that the RE has no upgrade Path which makes it a bit expensive to switch sooner or later so


the Macchi MC Series is the Way to go Saetta is introduced in 39 and available from the Start of Afrika Korps and the Upgrades Folgore in 41 and Veltro in 42 appear regularly and are in Family Upgrades. The Family Path ends with the Veltro though and i'm not ready to reveal what more is in the pipe in 43 and 44 except the Fact there will be NEW Units later on

The MC Series Fighters are all ok, but certainly a tad below the German or British State of the Art Modell in respective years, but also no walkovers for them. Still I won't confront a British Fighter in a One on One Battle with them. If i have to draw a Bottom Line on the MC Series. Good for giving Air Cover to Bombers and Ground Units. Not exactly the Units to accomplish Air Superiority, basically always a Year behind the British and German Modells available, which can be made up with experience and Heroes though




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Which was the one you started with in Recaonnaisance in Force. That bad boy ended the scenario with 2 stars experience.
He outperformed my greatest expectations and ended up dominating the air much to my surprise.
Very, very pleased with how I ended that first scenario with a 2 star 8 strength Italian Fighter.
He will be getting elite replacements as I want to retain that nice start in Experience.