The Italian Arsenal - Weapon Shop - Bargains & Discussion

[goose_2]

Tactical Bombers



I somehow like the Breda from the very few encounters I had with it in Afrika Korps, GC West and I think in Sealion Plus there is one as well.
These were almost all auxiliary units with low expectations involved and their performance were ok if not a tad better.
The Price of 168 PP is very nice and so it might be an option for someone who is low on Prestige.
Or someone who gets one awarded in a scenario and forgets to upgrade it for the next one
Speaking of Upgrading. this one is in family with



This one for just 111 PP more you get
maybe the Italian Crownjewel Unit
The ratings are ok and the Fuel sticks out as well, but ignore the ratings for now
These Planes are OVERPERFORMERS, they hit a lot harder than the Numbers make you believe they can. they Level UP really quick, they can take a beating by enemy Fighters, they are deadly vs subs, they are Dirt Cheap, they will be the backbone of your Airforce and they seem to attract heroes.
It also helps that you will get awarded One with a nice Hero already onboard.


Bang for the Buck
This one Unit you should buy at least once. It's available from the Start, it's usable til the End, it will Level Up to 15 pretty quick and at a base Price of 279 you can afford overstrength even on Rommel. It will be your Italian Version of the Stuka and a real workhorse Unit that leads the campaign in Kills soon



*more coming soon

You conviced me with your sell of the better Tac Bomber and that awesome looking Strat Bomber.
They will be part of my arsenal as I am able to protect them.

[goose_2]

Ok now to type up some AAR's

[hurly]

ok try to answer your bunch of questions all in one post

Trucks

What are your thoughts on trucks or no trucks?

I usually do not buy trucks as they are unnecessary and costly in my experience of playing the Grand Campaign except on my Pioniere and Grenadier units as their 2 movement is horrible.

well you answered my view on trucks already

My In Combat Infantry is usually upgraded to Grenadier, Heavy Infantry or Engineers pretty soon so a transport especially a truck for 50 Bucks is no question at all

When I use Gebirgsjäger in the mountains I don't want trucks or halftrucks attached as these prevent them from entering HIGH Mountain hexes.
But for me these are special Scenarios and I'm not a Gebirgsjäger User in flat Surroundings when there are Alternatives

In GC 39 I used NORMAL German Infantry a bit and these 3 Movement Infantry Units are ok, but to be honest I did not think a lot about it. Also never shy to abandon a truck down the road as 50 Prestige lost is in the budget

But an Oleh Dir who is usually changed to Engineer never gets a transport as he is fast enough already, Same goes for Infantry Units that come with Movement Heroes (don't remember their names)

Tanks
Thanks for this detail on each of their capabilities. Since I lost one of the initial Italian Tanks my thoughts on the Italian tanks capabilities is less than stellar, as such I will be buying and utilizing very little of the Italian variety as I will simply hope for either SE Panzers or utilize other Italian units, I see myself maybe buying one more, but I will have to build up some confidence or watch other people's scenarios like Braccada's to see how he play's the scenario after I play my blind playthrough.

That is my thoughts on Italian tanks.
Correct me where I am wrong.

I'm not in any position to correct you on anything. I just can give you my personal opinion, which can be ultimately wrong btw

Italian Tanks are certainly no Units that impress, but like I said they are no rolling coffins either.
It's certainly not good to lose one early on but can buy another any time you like (except for the Heroes and Experience)
Different story with German Tanks and Captured Allied Tanks. Keep them Alive (and find them) as good as you can. You can NOT BUY any German Tank in Italian Challenge, but you can Upgrade any German or Allied Tank into a Top Notch German Tank (Tiger, Tiger 2, Panther) when they become available in the Timeline

Anti Tank
I have loved the M41M in multiplayer, but I have not had much skill with building them up in my Grand Campaigns as only had 2 experienced Ant tank units going into Berlin.
I may try but will probably take your advice on this one, unless I see Braccada is doing something else with success than i might reconsider.

Actually I would love to see how you prove me wrong on this one. Just because I can't make this thing work, it does not mean much at all.
Except that I can't recommend one to you with a straight face

Artillery
That self propelled arty and the way you sold it is outstanding, one question and it will seal the deal with it being the majority of my arty line up, can it switch to Anti-tank?

Either way I will still use it, but the way you sell it I may try and upgrade all my towed arty's to that arty to maximize my suppression of the enemy.

No it can't switch to Anti Tank, it's like a Stug or a Brummbär that has Range 2

NOTE on Arty I did not (on purpose) expose all later Units in the Family already as I feel that would be a Spoiler at this point.
Let's say it like this. Italian Weapon designers work hard on an improved and much better version of this self propelled unit.
Early Results look very promising, but right now we can't give you a release Date (well actually I can, but it's secret if I tell you I might have to kill ya ) nor the Actual Ratings, but there will be at least two different in Family Upgrades to this unit. Which btw is still useful if you leave it at its current status (because you lack Prestige or just love this unit) til the End of the Campaign

Just so much I did not reveal the whole Line of Units For Arty, Tanks, Fighters and Tac Bombers. Afrika Korps has 20 Scenarios and I did not reveal any Units that appear after Scenario 10. (Except the Bersaglieri'43 Infantry upgrade which is not a Spoiler I think, as these happen for every Nation in Panzer Corps). Once you are past Scenario 9 (Alam Haifa) or 10 (Suezcanal) I will give you the whole Tree of Units. Maybe .... if you are a nice Guy still by this time

Fighters

Which was the one you started with in Recaonnaisance in Force. That bad boy ended the scenario with 2 stars experience.
He outperformed my greatest expectations and ended up dominating the air much to my surprise.
Very, very pleased with how I ended that first scenario with a 2 star 8 strength Italian Fighter.
He will be getting elite replacements as I want to retain that nice start in Experience.

It's the MC200 Saetta (321 PP) so you will enjoy the Family for quite some time

There will be 2 other Not IN Family Fighters later on, at least our Weapon Developers are pretty confident about that

[hurly]

Mc 205 Veltro or G55 Centauro or Bf 109 k Discussion (copied from other thread)

A question for you. I notice that you upgraded a Veltro fighter to a Centauro. While the Centauro has higher air attack it has one point less initiative and I have always believed initiative (who shoots first) is the most important stat for a fighter. I'd like to know whether you think this was the right way to go over the next few scenarios or whether it would have been better to stick with the Veltro or even wait for the Bf109 that becomes available later on?

That is a great question

I wish I had the time to finish up the Scenario AAR with Strategical Plans yesterday, so maybe your question would be answered as I wanted to elaborate why I did the Fighter Upgrade

Before these two Runs I had only played at the Colonel Level. Forever.
But I finished Afrika Korps before the 1.20 Patch and after the 1.20 Rules were inherited too. I even finished the Italian Challenge on Colonel before. So in terms of Scenarios and its twists and tasks there is not much that can surprise me. Even in Terms of Value and Bang for the Buck Factor for the Italian Units I have a pretty clear idea what I like or not. This is true to a very much smaller degree for the late Units in the Italian Path. So here we are in the Area where a gut feeling makes the difference sometimes.

Another Aspect to the Decision is Budget. On Colonel Level I had little trouble to field an all Tiger 2, FW 190 and "what not is state of the Art in the End" Army into the Final Stage. And even had some cash in the Bank.
On Rommel while I don't feel much difference in difficulty in Overall Gameplay, there is a huge difference in Prestige Available. For some Scenarios now I'm always thinking about the Costs for the necessary Upgrades of the Captured Tanks into Tigers and the Costs of Italian Tanks Upgrade into the Best Unit Available (I don't want to reveal the exact Time and Unit Name right now, as I know e.G. Goose will follow this AAR after he finished a Scenario Step by Step to compare it to his Results. So let's try to avoid the Spoilers as good as we can in this Regard. I think you know what Unit I'm talking about so we can leave it a that cryptic Term Best Unit Available. The 109 k Fighter is out now but I think no problem). So I calculate all the Time what is really necessary and what not.

Going back to my thinking Process for Run 1 (it's some time ago as the AAR lags behind the Real Action for approx 2 months for Run 1 (see the Dates on Replays)

Run 1 has had some luck in the SE Tank Department and sports 2 (3 with one that is a fixture in the Game Handout of Scenario 5) of them for a very long time (the First coming as early as Scenario 2) but had no luck in the Category SE Air Units so far. So their Path is always a bit easier on the Ground and a bit harder in the Air compared to Team Red which had no luck in extra SE Tanks but got an extra SE Fighter since the Malta Scenario # 9.
The difference in Gameplay is clearly visible in the Replays and also the Kill Counts if you dig in really deep.
So for Run 1 which features only two German Fighters and the One Italian we started with. I had to decide Bf 109 G to FW 190 A or Veltro to Centauro, but after SP Arty upgrades 2 Tigers, 2 Italian P26 Tank upgrades just one of them is possible. As basically all Italian Fighters at this point are relegated to Air Cover, Fighter Trap and Clean Up Shots I decided the extra Punch Air Attack 21 of the Centauro is more useful than the 109 G upgrade which was doing OK even in Head to Head combat to this Point. Initiative was not much of a Factor in my thinking process given the Way I utilize the Italian Fighters at this point. The 109 K was also not even in consideration as it appears to late in Afrika Korps and by then Money will be even tighter


Then there is the knowledge what is coming in this Scenario. I knew 6 very Strong Enemy Fighters will charge Early and they will hit hard if I can not "ambush" them. So I went with the Centauro Punch hoping for a One Shot Kill even in a Fighter Trap or Bomber Cover. Added a Green 90 cm as well as you can see and started the Scenario with very little Funds for Replacements (which came in very handy btw) Also there is that early pressure in the Scenario to stop the Convoys so it's all about a Heavy Punch on Enemy Air Force while doing an all out combined Tank Arty Attack in the North to close the Path for the Convoys.

As you can see I did not upgrade The Veltro for Team RED by now as Team Red has 3 FW 190 (two of the SE Variant)
the Mobile AA Unit and the AA 90 cm at hand. So the Veltro has to take a backseat as well as the SP Arty and I went all in On Tiger Tanks for all Captured Tanks except the Crusader and the SE Tank was a Tiger already before.
Started this Fight with 10 Prestige ! in the Bank and a lot of shit in my pants

Well so long talk about the thought process but no real answer available if the move to the Centauro was really worth it. It's all a Patchwork at this point and sometimes you have to compromise one Aspect for Another at this point. In Fact that Trend continues for me til the End of the Campaign, but I can take the Easy Argument of "You will see all Scenarios of the Campaign in this AAR !" so whatever the decison was, it was not a neckbreaker after all

Also I'm pretty sure we will see the same Discussion again once goose is at this point of the Campaign and right now I do not have enough hard facts (Prestige Available, SE Types awarded, Overall Amount of AA and Air Force, even what kind of Heroes were given by the Game) to tell you what advice I would give if he asks me by then

Thats also the aspect I love this Game so much. You can solve it in so many ways, Random Rolls can be a Huge Factor even a questionable Deployment Phase can be a neckbreaker and you can learn from almost any decent player and add new facets to your skills. And all this while doing scripted Scenarios with a rather not too smart AI.
This Game is really worth every Penny and it never gets old.

Thanks for the explanation. I think your reasoning is sound, so it has given me something to think about when considering upgrade choices in future.

I'm enjoying this as I like to see how other people tackle scenarios and someone else's analysis of priorities and objectives is always interesting.

I'll be interested to hear your views on the choice of Centauro after a few more scenarios. I would expect that your use of fighter traps would make the Centauro the better option, as the lower initiative doesn't matter with defensive fire, but you thoughts on value for money and versatility will be interesting.

hey remind me if I forget it in the next scenario writeup
but I have a fine example why the G55 upgrade was probably worth it layed out in a few screenshots
while pure Kill Count may tell a different story

not sure yet
maybe to keep the AAR which is tending to be a long one anyway in workable length I will do an extra post between scenarios for the Italian Fighter Situation interested Users. While it is getting the most attention so far I think it is still a Special Interest Topic

Anyway hold me accountable for it

[hurly]

The Mc 205 Veltro becomes available in Scenario # 7 Gazala Line as an In Family Upgrade for 76 PP to the Mc 202 Folgore
The G55 Centauro becomes available in Scenario #15 "Persia" as a Standalone Family for 507 PP
The Bf 109 K (ital.Version) becomes available in Scenario #19 "On the Road to India" as a Standalone Family for 543 PP

Just posting a quick Recap of my Numbers

Run 1 Veltro 8 Scenarios with 167 Turns 183 Kills / 54 Losses
Team Red Veltro 10 Scenarios with 217 Turns 312 Kills / 14 Losses

Run 1 Centauro 6 Scenarios with (150) Turns til the End of the Campaign
so far 3 Scenarios with 72 Turns 46 Kills / 26 Losses (will update numbers with AAR)
Team Red Centauro 4 Scenarios with (100) Turns til the End of the Campaign
so far 1 Scenario with 22 Turns 13 Kills / 0 Losses (will update numbers with AAR)

basic difference with Run 1 and Team Red Armies.
Run 1 has 2 more Fighters (a German SE Unit and a Captured Spitfire later converted to a FW 190 A) other than the Italian Fighter
Team Red has 3 more Fighters (2 German SE Units and a Captured Spitfire later converted to a FW 190 A) plus one Scenario before Team Red upgraded to the Centauro got an SE BF 110 D (upgraded to 110 G) which also has Air to Air Attack abilities.
so the Task and Roles to fulfill for the Italian Fighter are a bit different

[hurly]

To get the discussion going ahead of the AAR of the East Africa Scenario write-up I want to add an Example what the Centauro brings to the Table

In the East Africa Scenario the Centauro gives Air Cover to a Group of Bombers

as you can see it seemed to work as an unintentional Fighter Trap as the Centauro should be clearly visible for the enemy. Still a 2 Star Spitfire ran into the Centauro and lost 7 strength to 2 of the Centauro. Good Job by the Centauro. I killed off the Spitfire with the Centauro on my next turn and kept it still in Air Cover Mode for the Bomber Group
Although I did not expect 2 more 2 Star Spitfires to attack on Turn 4 as they spawned in Turn 3 (at least one of them).

The Centauro was hit for a loss of 5 by one of the Spitfires (which lost 4 strength for a virtual tie in the head to head Dogfight) and provided Air Cover for the northern Tac Bomber with the remaininig 3 strength. I was pretty lucky the second Spitfire (which lost 1 or 2 strength fom the Centauro Air Cover and the Bomber lost a few Strength as well) attacked the Tac Bomber instead of the Centauro cause it might not have survived (I assume the Spitfire just did not have enough Moves left for the attack on the Centauro), but overall the Centauro gave me a Kill Count of 14 Spitfires vs 7 Losses in Head to Head Combat and an Air Cover which bit of a few strength of a 3rd Spitfire. Both Spitfires were killed off or crippled by my 2 FW 190 A on the Next Turn.
Now while it's a hypothetical Argument, I highly doubt the Veltro Fighter with its slightly better Initiative, but inferior Air Attack would have been in a Position to easily clean off Spitfire #1 and even more doubts that it would have survived the second Spitfire Attack, nor that it would have provided sufficient Air Cover for the Tac Bomber vs the third Spitfire.
Bottom Line although the Kill/Loss Ratio of 20 - 7 for this scenario does not look to great for the Centauro, it certainly did a great job without any sheltering. And the Centauro is in a real tough spot here as all Enemy Fighters are 2 Star Units that shy away from the FW 190's at this point of the Campaign (unlike the 3 Star Enemy Units in the Persia and Caucasus Scenarios that do not hesitate to engage the FW 190's as well) and make the Centauro and it's Air Covers a Prime Target.
One can argue another option would have been to keep the Italian Fighter scratched for such a Scenario or even buy another green FW 190. Well I don't think so as my Army has just these 2 FW 190 and 1 Italian Fighter at hand and buying German Units is not an option while going to accomplish the Italian Challenge. 507 PP for the Upgrade might be a steep Prize and maybe an investment into 2 more Artillery Units or 1 Arty and 1 AA could do the Trick as well, but I think the Centauro proved it can do the Job.

[hurly]

All Italian Units available now updated.

I think halfway through the Campaign it is not a Spoiler anymore to know what's in the Pipeline of Development for your Forces. I would be naive to think that Real Generals in WW 2 would not have any Intel about new Stuff coming soon. In Fact the Kursk Offensive was delayed for some Time as Commanders knew the Panther Tanks would be available soon and they hoped for significant Improvement of Tank Fighting Abilities

so updated
Tanks
Artillery
Fighters
Tac Bombers

Italian Arsenal completed

[goose_2]

Mc 205 Veltro or G55 Centauro or Bf 109 k Discussion (copied from other thread)

A question for you. I notice that you upgraded a Veltro fighter to a Centauro. While the Centauro has higher air attack it has one point less initiative and I have always believed initiative (who shoots first) is the most important stat for a fighter. I'd like to know whether you think this was the right way to go over the next few scenarios or whether it would have been better to stick with the Veltro or even wait for the Bf109 that becomes available later on?

That is a great question

I wish I had the time to finish up the Scenario AAR with Strategical Plans yesterday, so maybe your question would be answered as I wanted to elaborate why I did the Fighter Upgrade

Before these two Runs I had only played at the Colonel Level. Forever.
But I finished Afrika Korps before the 1.20 Patch and after the 1.20 Rules were inherited too. I even finished the Italian Challenge on Colonel before. So in terms of Scenarios and its twists and tasks there is not much that can surprise me. Even in Terms of Value and Bang for the Buck Factor for the Italian Units I have a pretty clear idea what I like or not. This is true to a very much smaller degree for the late Units in the Italian Path. So here we are in the Area where a gut feeling makes the difference sometimes.

Another Aspect to the Decision is Budget. On Colonel Level I had little trouble to field an all Tiger 2, FW 190 and "what not is state of the Art in the End" Army into the Final Stage. And even had some cash in the Bank.
On Rommel while I don't feel much difference in difficulty in Overall Gameplay, there is a huge difference in Prestige Available. For some Scenarios now I'm always thinking about the Costs for the necessary Upgrades of the Captured Tanks into Tigers and the Costs of Italian Tanks Upgrade into the Best Unit Available (I don't want to reveal the exact Time and Unit Name right now, as I know e.G. Goose will follow this AAR after he finished a Scenario Step by Step to compare it to his Results. So let's try to avoid the Spoilers as good as we can in this Regard. I think you know what Unit I'm talking about so we can leave it a that cryptic Term Best Unit Available. The 109 k Fighter is out now but I think no problem). So I calculate all the Time what is really necessary and what not.

Going back to my thinking Process for Run 1 (it's some time ago as the AAR lags behind the Real Action for approx 2 months for Run 1 (see the Dates on Replays)

Run 1 has had some luck in the SE Tank Department and sports 2 (3 with one that is a fixture in the Game Handout of Scenario 5) of them for a very long time (the First coming as early as Scenario 2) but had no luck in the Category SE Air Units so far. So their Path is always a bit easier on the Ground and a bit harder in the Air compared to Team Red which had no luck in extra SE Tanks but got an extra SE Fighter since the Malta Scenario # 9.
The difference in Gameplay is clearly visible in the Replays and also the Kill Counts if you dig in really deep.
So for Run 1 which features only two German Fighters and the One Italian we started with. I had to decide Bf 109 G to FW 190 A or Veltro to Centauro, but after SP Arty upgrades 2 Tigers, 2 Italian P26 Tank upgrades just one of them is possible. As basically all Italian Fighters at this point are relegated to Air Cover, Fighter Trap and Clean Up Shots I decided the extra Punch Air Attack 21 of the Centauro is more useful than the 109 G upgrade which was doing OK even in Head to Head combat to this Point. Initiative was not much of a Factor in my thinking process given the Way I utilize the Italian Fighters at this point. The 109 K was also not even in consideration as it appears to late in Afrika Korps and by then Money will be even tighter


Then there is the knowledge what is coming in this Scenario. I knew 6 very Strong Enemy Fighters will charge Early and they will hit hard if I can not "ambush" them. So I went with the Centauro Punch hoping for a One Shot Kill even in a Fighter Trap or Bomber Cover. Added a Green 90 cm as well as you can see and started the Scenario with very little Funds for Replacements (which came in very handy btw) Also there is that early pressure in the Scenario to stop the Convoys so it's all about a Heavy Punch on Enemy Air Force while doing an all out combined Tank Arty Attack in the North to close the Path for the Convoys.

As you can see I did not upgrade The Veltro for Team RED by now as Team Red has 3 FW 190 (two of the SE Variant)
the Mobile AA Unit and the AA 90 cm at hand. So the Veltro has to take a backseat as well as the SP Arty and I went all in On Tiger Tanks for all Captured Tanks except the Crusader and the SE Tank was a Tiger already before.
Started this Fight with 10 Prestige ! in the Bank and a lot of shit in my pants

Well so long talk about the thought process but no real answer available if the move to the Centauro was really worth it. It's all a Patchwork at this point and sometimes you have to compromise one Aspect for Another at this point. In Fact that Trend continues for me til the End of the Campaign, but I can take the Easy Argument of "You will see all Scenarios of the Campaign in this AAR !" so whatever the decison was, it was not a neckbreaker after all

Also I'm pretty sure we will see the same Discussion again once goose is at this point of the Campaign and right now I do not have enough hard facts (Prestige Available, SE Types awarded, Overall Amount of AA and Air Force, even what kind of Heroes were given by the Game) to tell you what advice I would give if he asks me by then

Thats also the aspect I love this Game so much. You can solve it in so many ways, Random Rolls can be a Huge Factor even a questionable Deployment Phase can be a neckbreaker and you can learn from almost any decent player and add new facets to your skills. And all this while doing scripted Scenarios with a rather not too smart AI.
This Game is really worth every Penny and it never gets old.

Thanks for the explanation. I think your reasoning is sound, so it has given me something to think about when considering upgrade choices in future.

I'm enjoying this as I like to see how other people tackle scenarios and someone else's analysis of priorities and objectives is always interesting.

I'll be interested to hear your views on the choice of Centauro after a few more scenarios. I would expect that your use of fighter traps would make the Centauro the better option, as the lower initiative doesn't matter with defensive fire, but you thoughts on value for money and versatility will be interesting.

hey remind me if I forget it in the next scenario writeup
but I have a fine example why the G55 upgrade was probably worth it layed out in a few screenshots
while pure Kill Count may tell a different story

not sure yet
maybe to keep the AAR which is tending to be a long one anyway in workable length I will do an extra post between scenarios for the Italian Fighter Situation interested Users. While it is getting the most attention so far I think it is still a Special Interest Topic

Anyway hold me accountable for it

Hey I read up on this but stopped once it got to screenshots, I am trying to avoid those as they seems spoilery, but the discussion and what you posted on my AAR has got me really doing some thinking.

I was going to upgrade Grant, no thought needed there.
I was thinking about getting another Sahariana, but believe your post has me reconsidering another SP Arty as they have been an excellent back up for my units.
The thing I am just not sure about is the Centauro upgrade, as that seems awfully expensive for not that much improvement, but I need all of the improvements I can get in the air because as of right now my Air Force Fighterwise stinks.

I have no hope improving it as I just keep getting screwed with SE Equipment, but am bound and determined to trudge on.

Ultimately, I guess these are my questions:

1: Is the Caucus scenario necessary to complete the game? (In other words, if I miss that scenario will I find it impossible to finish the game successfully?)
The answer will not change what I probably do in the scenario I just want to kind of know what kind of pressure I need to apply in my playing.

2: Looking back at your playthrough, Hurly, and anyone else who is interested and following this lively discussion, would you say increasing your attack and fuel was better than having a slightly better initiative and kept the enemy from trying to attack your Fighter's directly?

I am worried that if I upgrade both fighter's to Centauro's I will be extremely limited with being able to overstrengthen the Fighter's even by 1 strength point and still give most units the needed replacements to not lose much Experience.

So many decisions, that ultimately will be decided by probably next week as this weekend I will be out of town all weekend, and I want to give this one some thought before I just dive in.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

[Cerberus51]

The Caucasus scenario is optional, you can skip it and go to the next scenario on the main campaign path. If you have committed to playing it you will go to Arabia next whether you get a decisive, marginal or loss.

I'm still not sure what I would do about the Centauro upgrade. I suspect the key is how much experience your fighters have. If they are 3* the small reduction in initiative shouldn't be a problem. The best British fighter you will face except for the last scenario is the Spitfire IX you have already encountered. Perhaps compromise and upgrade 1 Veltro and see how it goes?

[hurly]

The Caucasus scenario is optional, you can skip it and go to the next scenario on the main campaign path. If you have committed to playing it you will go to Arabia next whether you get a decisive, marginal or loss.

I'm still not sure what I would do about the Centauro upgrade. I suspect the key is how much experience your fighters have. If they are 3* the small reduction in initiative shouldn't be a problem. The best British fighter you will face except for the last scenario is the Spitfire IX you have already encountered. Perhaps compromise and upgrade 1 Veltro and see how it goes?

like Cerberus said Caucasus is not necessary for the Campaign (probably still for the Personal Pride )
From a Prestige Point of View it is a wash for me when it goes well, a minus deal when not.
(But I'm not that good in forcing surrenders on the enemy so it might work out very positive for the goose-man. So what you can gain is experience and a few Heroes. Caucasus is a Scenario where all Enemy Units have 3 Stars Experience so the Decision if and how to handle it, can be done after the Persia Scenario (In short Caucasus has fewer Air Threats but more Tanks (and pretty obviously its Russian Tanks).

But we have to deal with Persia now

So while we basically agree on the Ground Unit Updates it comes down to the Centauro vs Veltro Question

I have done this Scenario with the Following Air resp AA sets

a Centauro at 1* (no Overstrength) Spo + Att +1 Hero ------- 11 Losses
a FW 190 (updated from the Captured Spitfire) at 1* (no Overstrength) Att +1 Hero ------- 7 Losses
a SE 109 G at 1* (no Overstrength) Def +1 Att +1 Hero ------- 7 Losses

assisted by AA Units
a Mobile SdKfz 7/2 with 3*** (3 Overstrength) No Heroes ------- No Losses
a Towed Italian 90mm AA with 3*** (3 Overstrength) Mov +1 Def +2 Spo +1 Hero ------- 4 Losses
a Towed Italian 90mm AA Green Unit bought for the Scenario ------- 4 Losses

had 9 losses on 2 Tac Bombers and 4 Losses on 2 Strat Bombers in the Scenario

then

a Veltro at 4**** (no Overstrength) Def +1 Att +2 Def +1 Hero ------- 5 Losses
a SE Fw190 at 4**** (no Overstrength) Def +1 Att +3 Hero ------- 4 Losses
a SE Fw190 at 1* (no Overstrength) Spo +1 and in the Scenario awarded Att +3 Hero ------- 7 Losses
a Fw190 at (former Spitfire) at 4**** Def +2 Att +1 Hero ------- No Losses

assisted by AA Units
a Mobile SdKfz 7/2 with 4**** (4 Overstrength) Def +2 Def +1 Hero ------- No Losses
a Towed Italian 90mm AA with 1* (1 Overstrength) Att +1 Hero awarded in the Scenario ------- No Losses

had 12 losses on 3 Tac Bombers and No Losses on 2 Strat Bombers in the Scenario


and finally in the All Italian Mode
a Veltro at 4**** (4 Overstrength) Att +2 Att +1 Def +1 Hero ------- 14 Losses
a Veltro at 4**** (4 Overstrength) Def +2 Ini +1 Hero ------- 7 Losses
a Spitfire at 2** (2 Overstrength) Att +1 Hero ------- 8 Losses

assisted by AA Units
a Towed Italian 90mm AA with 3*** (3 Overstrength) Att +2 Def +1 Mov +1 Hero ------- 3 Losses
a Towed Italian 90mm AA with 3*** (3 Overstrength) Att +3 Att +2 Hero ------- 3Losses
a Towed Italian 90mm AA with No Stars (almost Green ! Scenario with 8 Kills before) ------- No Losses

had 18 losses on 3 Tac Bombers and 2 Losses on 2 Strat Bombers in the Scenario

any Combo worked out in the End

I did not use Overstrength on Planes in the First 2 Runs as I knew there would be Losses and wanted to minimize the Costs

In the 3rd Run I used Full Overstrentgth on All Planes because my thinking was with the lower Basic Quality in the Air I needed all the Help I could get.

so goose-olini

which path do you wanna go with your troops ?

the 2 Veltro 1 FW 190 setup plus 2 AA Guns with some experience is almost identical to the 3rd run.

how many Experience and which Heroes are available as we speak for your squad ?

This Scenario is tricky, there will be Losses on your Air Units for sure. On the other Hand you can't be too restrictive with Air Units or you won't manage to break through the Enemy Lines in Time to catch the Convoy Trucks. A Catch 22 Situation.

I never tried to just Bomb and Strive the Trucks as they they are hard to find and there is some pesky AA at Hand for the Enemy as well, but won't rule out this Approach can work too. I would prefer the good old Fashioned Breakthrough of the Enemy Lines especially since you have seen tougher Entrenchments before and did it with ease. Since the Convoy Trucks obviously are coming from the South and try to escape in the North to supply the Russians an very aggressive Tactic in the Northern Part is recommended.

Whatever you do expect Trouble to be brewing all the Time, there will be heavy Air Attacs and Fighter Traps are in Order to deal with it. The AA Guns should do the Rest. Then the Northern Breakthrough needs some Quality Units to be done as soon as possible, but don't expose the South too much, you need some Balance and there will be surprises all the Time.
This Scenario is designed to fool and hurt the First Time Players so be aware. Funny Thing is once you have seen it all and figured out what's happening you can harvest some very easy Prestige via Surrenders. I don't think I picked up more Prestige via Surrender than in this Battle. So I'm really anxious to see how you do as your skills in Surrender Harvesting is amazing.

So what's my Verdict on the Air Situation after all

Well I think your Veltros can do the Job (and probably til the End) while the Centauro is the better Unit to me, but this is basically the same Question as with German Tanks. Is a Tiger really worth the Cost from the Top of the Line Panzer III or IV ? And later in the Timeline is an Upgrade from Tiger to Tiger 2 worth it ? In a Grand Campaign without a doubt, in a Short Campaign like Afrika Korps with limited Resources and 6 (or less) Scenarios to go, probably not.

Will be a hard decision on your Part and if it's the Right One depends on your Gut Feeling and of Course the Result of the Battle

[goose_2]

Hurly, I have read your advice and breakdown of your playthroughs. Nice job advising without actually spoilering anything. Your advice is just vague enough to make it helpful without being a do this don't do that kind of advice that might spoil my playthrough, so thank you and well done.

Looking at your list of your starter armies and their losses in that scenario, I found it quite shocking in all honesty.

My question is this are those losses on your fighters from their assaults or from your losses when trying to counter attack?
What I am trying to understand is regardless of your unit make up did the enemy attack your Italian fighters as soon as they found them or were your fighters just weakened during their counter attacks?

The answers to these questions will help me decide whether to upgrade or just concentrate on overstrengthening by at least 1. I am likely to maybe upgrade 1 and leaving the other. I am still contemplating.

I finished Guderian last night and will hopefully get time to type up today, but may end up being tomorrow.

[hurly]

Hurly, I have read your advice and breakdown of your playthroughs. Nice job advising without actually spoilering anything. Your advice is just vague enough to make it helpful without being a do this don't do that kind of advice that might spoil my playthrough, so thank you and well done.

Looking at your list of your starter armies and their losses in that scenario, I found it quite shocking in all honesty.

My question is this are those losses on your fighters from their assaults or from your losses when trying to counter attack?
What I am trying to understand is regardless of your unit make up did the enemy attack your Italian fighters as soon as they found them or were your fighters just weakened during their counter attacks?

The answers to these questions will help me decide whether to upgrade or just concentrate on overstrengthening by at least 1. I am likely to maybe upgrade 1 and leaving the other. I am still contemplating.

I finished Guderian last night and will hopefully get time to type up today, but may end up being tomorrow.

These losses were on a Fight with good Rolls for me !!!!
I'm sure you don't wanna hear what happened on my personal Blindthrough

I'm not beating around the Bush and tell you the Enemy will come with 3 Star Fighters and they will go after you with all they have ! And you will be lucky to escape without Total Losses for your Air Units early on. Losses come from different Sources. You have to hurry to cut off the Path of the Convoy Trucks. So you have use your Bombers despite the Air Rush. And you will be exposed to some really pesky Mobile AA (did I mention that all Enemy Units are 3 Star Experienced)

So it's important to set a few working Fighter Traps to get free shots at them early on.
Maybe even set what braccada calls Second Layer Fighter traps or even better let them Run into your AA.

It's key to kill off at least 3 (better 4) Enemy Fighters as quickly as possible.

That's the Bad News

The Good News is

Once you have taken out a Fighter the AI will not spawn any more of them.
And by Turn 3 (probably Turn 2 ) you will have seen anything they have in the Air.

Sounds scary eh ?

It is, but if you manage your Assets well you may not lose many Air Units after Turn 10 when you should have Air Superiority and got rid of the Mobile AA.

So it is a constant trouble early on, but once you have blocked the Path of the Trucks and eliminated them, the Pace slows down a bit. Sort of there will be surprises still and you have to deal with 3 Star all the Time. I felt hurried in this one til the End.

But it got better with time and the more I played that Scenario I learned to keep my cool.
In the ALL Italian Run I was pretty relaxed and picked up lots of Prestige via surrender.

I can give you a Rule of Thumb (but don't nail me down on that !) and all odds are off in later Scenarios when the Allies have better Units

I don't think the AI will attack Air Units with more Experience Stars than they have.
4 Star Fighters might be save from Air Attacks and the Bombers they Cover as well
3 Star FW 190 might be spared as well and their covered Bombers too.

This might change once a Fighter is weakened by AA
Also my 4 Star Veltro without Overstrength was attacked
My 2 Star Spitfire was attacked as well once it was down to 10 strength or less
They seem to shy away from going after a FW 190 with more than 1 Star
Heroes awarded to Units might play into that too

But they did not Attack the 2 4 Star Veltros with Full Overstrength !!!!
And I don't think they will attack your FW190 when it has 1 Star Experience or more even without Overstrength

Heads Up --- These nervewrecking AA Units might change this Pattern !

So yeah there will be losses early on ! But hang in there and set a Premium on eliminating or Crippling as many Fighters as Possible and deal with the Bombers later on and suck up the Damage they do.

I think it will be about 10 very hectic Turns at the Start, the Evacuation of the Trucks if they go unblocked might start in Turn 7 (maybe even Turn 6 as they pretty quick). By Turn 10 it will all settle down a bit, as you should have eliminated all Trucks, Fighters and Mobile AA by then.

Then concentrate on the Victory Hexes and don't get drawn away from sidestories or non Victory Hexes too much. Also be aware that it is a Big Map. So you have to micromanage a bit and approach several Victory Hexes simultaenously.

And like you said before

There is no Pressure to get a Decisive Victory here, when in Doubt choose the Safe Road and make sure your Key Units survive.
Caucasus is not only optional, but a 3 Star Enemy Scenario as well, so it makes no sense to lose a lot of Prestige for Repairs and Casualties just for the Personal Bragging Rights of a Triumph in this one.

I'm still confident you will get a Decisive Victory as you have proven in every scenario before.

Just be warned that the Unicorn in Rainbowland times are over now !

[goose_2]

Hurly, I have read your advice and breakdown of your playthroughs. Nice job advising without actually spoilering anything. Your advice is just vague enough to make it helpful

Just be warned that the Unicorn in Rainbowland times are over now !

The last line made me laugh yet again, thanks Hurly, for your very sound advice and worthy hints.

I am so excited about playing this scenario I may start my attempt tonight, but still may delay to see if anyone else has anything further to offer me.

This game is so very exciting.

I am such a kid at heart.

[goose_2]

Based on hurly's recent post I was reminded of this awesome information that Hurly posted back during my Blindthrough.

I very much enjoyed rereading and contemplating possible purchases...OT is back at work so less time for playing, but hopefully will be doing Battle Axe soon with purchasing at least one Italian 88 based on Hurly's suggestion.

I am posting here to bring this more to the forefront of peoples attention as it is extremely helpful.