Winning The Battle Of Lutter

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drjeff21
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Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by drjeff21 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:21 pm

I have tried several times to win this battle as the Danes, but cannot seem to win this battle. If anyone has been able to do so an AAR would be greatly appreciated so that I can see what you did. Thank you.

Pixel
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Pixel » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:12 am

I just finished my first play-through of this scenario and while it ended up in a defeat I think the crux is the left flank where the Imperial forces have the bulk of their Tercios positioned.

Making a mobile defensive line and trading space for time using the fall back command seemed like the best approach for this flank. While their Tercios eventually broke through, this strategy did met with some success as I was able to break a couple of them by using the Danes shot heavy formations to whittle them down at a distance.

I routed most of the forces fording the bridge on the right flank by moving over some of the Pike and Shot formations to support my cavalry and by picking my charge targets carefully.

In the middle I think I moved up my units into blocking positions on the stream banks too soon as the enemy was able to bombard my formations a bit too much. Nevertheless, keeping the enemy on their side of the river and working at them with cannon and musket fire did disrupt and fragment a few more of their Tercios. I'm still trying to work out the best way to deal with the enemy Kuirassiers in the center for my next attempt at Lutter though. They just seemed to move up into the stream and halt parallel to my line of Cavalry in blocking positions.

Anyways these are my initial thoughts on this scenario.
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drjeff21
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by drjeff21 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:54 pm

Thank you for the comments Pixel - greatly appreciated. I think my biggest problem has been that I have been in "PanzerCorps mode" for some time and need to adjust my approach to battles of this era. lol

KateMicucci
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by KateMicucci » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:08 pm

I can't figure out this one either. I've tried it twice.

You start out in a bad deployment and have barely any time to rearrange yourself before the Imperials hit you.

The huge stack of later tercios on your right flank is the biggest problem. You just cannot harass them down with musketry before they hit you. Once they do hit you, your tercios often break within a single turn. The harassment from the light infantry and constant threat of cuirassier charges doesn't help. Your soldier's low morale means that theyre very likely to fail cohesion tests when commanded to fall back.

Your right flank and center are relatively easy to hold (more difficult to actually win), but that hardly matters since you won't be able to manuever your forces for any advantage once the right flank is secure.

Most other missions give you some kind of advantage that you can leverage, but in this one I see none.

You are surrounded.
Your are outnumbered.
Your troops are lower quality.
The enemy formations are bigger (meaning fewer cohesion tests from shooting)

In Christian's postion I would have probably started my line of defense at the forests and castle in back of the map, rather than trying to defend the river after the imperials have already crossed it.

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by tamerlane » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:00 am

I have tried this one a few times and been squashed flat each time

KateMicucci
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by KateMicucci » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:08 am

Finally beat this battle, but it was very close. 61%/50%.

There doesn't seem to be any simple way to solve it. It's just about knowing the rules of the game and chipping away at the enemy while keeping your own units from being routed.

It is possible to chain route the enemy cav on your right flank pretty easily. Just let them come out a bit so that they can't use the town and river to defend their harquebusiers, or bring down reinforcements. You have more units on that side so its easy (and necessary) to get flank and rear attacks in.

On your left flank you need to form a diagonal line with your infantry and keep falling back, keeping the enemy either just within range or 1 square out of range. You can't count on your units to pass their cohesion test if the enemy tercios get too close. Your leftmost cannons will need to be sacrificed, since you cannot defend them. Eventually the imperial tercios will catch up to you. When that happens, either sacrifice the unit that got caught or pile on with 3+ of your own tercios. Unfortunately, even with the penalty from fighting so many units, it will still come down to luck... and your units will be horribly exposed to cavalry charges, which the imperial tercios will never have a problem with :roll:

Take the rest of your infantry and form a defense at the river to keep the other tercios and cuirassiers from crossing.

Your left flank cavalry is very vulnerable and not in a position to do anything useful. Pull them back so that they won't just route and maybe you can get some use out of them later.

Pixel
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Pixel » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:00 am

Nice to hear that you beat this one. 61%/50% sounds pretty nail bitingly close. I've definitely got to work on the left flank side of things myself. So far I've been able to hold the right and center in most of my attempts at Lutter. However, I definitely feel like I'm getting my cavalry on the left stomped on too early. Therefore, I'll definitely give your approach of pulling them back so the shot in the woods and the enemy heavies don't maul them up right away a try.
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Pixel
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Pixel » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:21 am

Tried again tonight and was throughly thrashed. The Danes under my command did arguably even worse then my prior attempts at this battle. :?

So as a consolation prize I traveled back in time, loaded up the Fornovo scenario from the Italian Wars campaign, and had fun executing flank charges on Charles VIII's marching column while forcing the indomitable Swiss Keils to run around after my cavalry. Didn't really dent the Swiss but, having routed the majority of the French crossbowman the Holy League army was victorious. :D
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drjeff21
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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by drjeff21 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:46 pm

KateMicucci wrote:Finally beat this battle, but it was very close. 61%/50%.

There doesn't seem to be any simple way to solve it. It's just about knowing the rules of the game and chipping away at the enemy while keeping your own units from being routed.

It is possible to chain route the enemy cav on your right flank pretty easily. Just let them come out a bit so that they can't use the town and river to defend their harquebusiers, or bring down reinforcements. You have more units on that side so its easy (and necessary) to get flank and rear attacks in.

On your left flank you need to form a diagonal line with your infantry and keep falling back, keeping the enemy either just within range or 1 square out of range. You can't count on your units to pass their cohesion test if the enemy tercios get too close. Your leftmost cannons will need to be sacrificed, since you cannot defend them. Eventually the imperial tercios will catch up to you. When that happens, either sacrifice the unit that got caught or pile on with 3+ of your own tercios. Unfortunately, even with the penalty from fighting so many units, it will still come down to luck... and your units will be horribly exposed to cavalry charges, which the imperial tercios will never have a problem with :roll:

Take the rest of your infantry and form a defense at the river to keep the other tercios and cuirassiers from crossing.

Your left flank cavalry is very vulnerable and not in a position to do anything useful. Pull them back so that they won't just route and maybe you can get some use out of them later.

I followed your advice and finally was able to win (albeit by a small margin)! Thank you.

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Waldorf » Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:03 pm

I'm having a bit of a nightmare with this one, but i refuse to lower the difficulty!

The river always holds, but I either lose the left flank or the right depending on where I deploy the strongest.

Got some cavalry behind and mopped up his artillery in my last game, but I'm still miles off the magic 60%.

I've had my Tercio's in double ranks diagonally on the left. Haven't piled on when one engages though - I've just maintained my firing line.

I think mob the Tercio which engages has to be the answer - will report back!

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by shawkhan2 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:12 pm

I won the Battle of Lutter last night by doing the one thing most people never think of, I attacked.
In order to buy time for my maneuvers I left 2 cavalry on the left flank while one musket ran for the fortress along with a couple pike and shot.
Everyone else ran to the right flank.
The trick to dealing with cavalry in this game is to use infantry to confront them.
As soon as I had a few fire units within range I closed with the Imperial cavalry on my right flank and gave them a taste of shot. After some of them became disrupted, I sent in my cvalry to begin the routing through melee, while the infantry moved and crossed the stream on the far right to confront the remaining Imperial cavalry.
It took the Imperials on my left 3-4 turns of abusing my 2 sacrificial lambs before they moved on.
Meanwhile I was winning the battle on the right.
The trick to winning this battle is to avoid contact with those 5 Imperial Deathstars(Early tercios) as there is no way to defeat them in melee, period.
The guys in the town, just three units, tied up 3 Kuraissers, all the Imperial commanded shot and one of the Early tercios.
I won the battle 53% to 28% but would have lost if the tercios had caught up with me.
Audacity, always audacity!

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Waldorf » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:47 pm

I nearly got there tonight by using the forest to protect my left lank. Your plan sounds like an excellent one, and I'll give it a go!

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Rmarsden » Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:27 am

A difficult battle!

Short Version: Stall the Imperial tercios. Falling back into the woods and setting up an initial cavalry wall helps achieve this. Set up your foot to oppose the Imperial cavalry behind the river. Shoot them. A lot.

Long Version:

Like many others, I found this scenario challenging.

The initial dispositions of the Danish army, on the surface, is good. A river all along the North and East covers your center and right. Woods and a town are on your left.
The Danish have many foot, cavalry and infantry.
The Danish artillery is situated well in the center of the field.

However, the Imperials are monstrously hard to defeat. They have already breached the river on the left and on the right, making the feature of no value. The woods to the west are crawling with musketeers. The Imperials have several tercios which are nearly unbeatable in melee on the left, and plenty of cavalry on the right. Worse, the Danish morale is low and in melee, their foot tend to disrupt and route rather quickly.

The Imperial center is relatively weak, but with powerful forces on either wing, and the river defending them (not you), it makes for a rough start.

Taking the advice of others after being crunched repeatedly, I tried to base my strategy entirely on keeping the tercios on my left busy and occupied. I did so well, that at one point, the battle was 1% to 27% in my favor.

On the left I matched my heavy cavalry to theirs, but did not charge. I brought over several foot and mounted arquebusiers to help clear the woods of the musketeers and lend assistance to my heavy cavalry. The Imperials matched up to my cavalry and were equally hesitant to charge. They stood nose to nose until my foot and mounted units with firepower began to pepper them. The Imperials charged and became locked in combat. They also created a large wall that the oncoming tercios had to go around. This bought me time.

My foot and mounted arquebusiers routed the Imperial musketeers in the woods and I started to inch up along the treeline to arrange for flank charges on the Imperial cavalry that was locked in combat. I had some foot units position to the south, just within gun-range for when the tercios arrived. When the tercios did arrive, I had already routed most the Imperial cavalry and continued north to cross the river and assist my efforts in the center. The tercios became confused. Most engaged my nearby foot, who fell back, and back, and eventually fell back into the trees. The tercios kept up a ponderous chase and never caught up to my foot soldiers. One tercio smashed into my artillery, but then started to chase, and eventually route, one of my mounted arquebusiers that had circled far to the north. The tercios were thus, out of the battle, and it is the only way I can think of winning Lutter.

From the center to the right I brought forth my infantry on my side of the river, and my heavy cavalry made way for them. In this way, I had a firing line protected by the river that drove the Imperial cavalry back and managed to whittle down their numbers and disrupt some of them. I had a few units cross the river to get within firing range of the Imperial artillery, and had them fall back soon as the Imperial foot in the center decided to engage. Eventually, I crossed the river entirely to get close to the enemy and away from the tercios on my left, unsure if they'd stay distracted. Here, things almost went wrong. Despite weakening the Imperial foot with artillery and my own foot, when it came to hand to hand on open ground, a few of my units routed. So much for a 1% to 40% win I thought I might pull off.

Worse, a few routed Imperial units recovered behind my lines. They thankfully remained a mess and didn't rally to cause me more than emotional stress. My cavalry that had swept up from my left eventually arrived, while a huge force on my right did the same a few turns later. The Imperial center collapsed and the game ended.

On the right I brought down nearly all my heavy cavalry in the vicinity, the cavalry already positioned near the bridge, and two foot units. This was enough to engage, out-shoot, and overwhlem the Imperial cavalry force. While it took time, I eventually was able to route every Imperial on my right with no routes of my own. My victorious soldiers stormed the lone artillery position and crossed the river, following it north to help seal the Imperial defeat in the center.

Thanks for the help all on this one.

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Waldorf » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:49 pm

After four evenings of hard slog I finally won 57% - 60%. But that's still a win ;).

That is probably the most exhilarated I have been by a video game in the last thirty years (somewhat appropriately).

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Rmarsden » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:54 am

How did you do it?

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Waldorf » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:18 am

Mostly by applying shawkhan2's attacking strategy, but the Tercio's made reasonably short work of the harrying forces left around the forest and town and bore down on the infantry who were fighting at the river. We finally managed to cross the river at the last minute and used the disadvantage that the Tercios were at from fighting across the water to buy precious moments to mop up the cavalry. A damned close run thing :).

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by raxkelala » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:35 am

Extremely helpful posts, thank you! I have lost Lutter five times in a row these past two days and was tearing my hair out, and then I wondered if somewhere out there were similar 17th century battlefield obsessives encountering the same problems. There were! The closest I came to winning was with the diagonal fallback firing line on the left, where I did manage to route all of the "Imperial Deathstars" (makes you wonder why anybody ever bothered with the more modern pike & shot formations or salvo troops when these "older and deeper" formations are nearly unstoppable in this game...design flaw?), but then my right flank crumbled because I didn't handle my cavalry charges very intelligently, and also I had pulled too many units to the left to support my assault on the Deathstars. I will try again tonight with some of the strategies listed above, some very creative. Thank you all for bringing a ray of hope to my benighted 17th century universe!

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Rmarsden » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:37 pm

On your right, bring over your cavalry on your side of the river. The Imperial cavalry will line up, but not cross (usually) if it means charging into the river.

Then swap your cavalry for your infantry. Enough to cover the area and leave no gaps. Once you have a firing line, the Imperial cavalry can't do anything but get shot and fall back. In a jiff, three units of pike and shot, with your cavalry ensuring there are no gaps, is enough to start causing the Imperials problems.

Overwhelm the bridge on your right. If the Imperial cavalry get through, they'll wreck what you have going on at the river.

Good luck, report back a win.

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by raxkelala » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:38 am

Shawkhan2 and Rmarsden have it right. After experimenting many more times I have been able to get big and relatively easy wins by diverting the 4 Imperial Veteran Tercios on the left flank with cavalry (the old "Look at the pretty ponies" tactic) while shifting my entire army to the right flank and across the south branch of the river while placing three infantry units in the town and fortress of Lutter itself. Once you form a firing line on the south bank of the river (full right flank from initial position) it's pretty much all over for the Imperials--as long as you can redirect them successfully and delay them long enough. The only real danger comes from them circling east of the river and flanking your reformed battle line on its new right flank. The Imperial Tercios are indominable in melee combat--I've had five Early Tercios on one of them and had all five of mine get routed :( Anyhow, thank you all for your help solving this most excellent strategic puzzle. Huzzay!

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Re: Winning The Battle Of Lutter

Post by Rmarsden » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:45 pm

Well done on your victory.

This scenario was great in that you learned how to use a large, but inferior army. I often expect a head to head slog in a scenario, and this wasn't that.

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