The Very Hard No Missiles Challenge

[moj]

...that's if you'll forgive the use of pila.

I usually run the Romans with four auxiliary archers, and when circumstances permit my battle plan is to give the archers as many kills as possible in order to qualify them for the Field Artillery Of The Gods. Yes, the FAOTG is only available for the final three (possibly four) battles, but it makes me smile to see hoplites and legionnaires destroyed by two volleys.

Anyway, I thought I'd give arrow-less (and skirmisher/velite-less) a spin.

Vadimo Lake and Cisalpine Gaul were not (as I'd feared) unwinnable. In both cases the wins were probably easier than if I'd had my usual army composition (which by this stage would have four auxiliary archers with extra arrows and heavy missiles). It was just a case of getting my four auxilary infantry onto the scrub and facing up to the appropriate opposition.

I came unstuck at Cynocephalae. My army was as follows, all with first or second grade upgrades to both weapons and armour:
4x auxiliaries (L17-L18)
2x auxiliary cavalry (L14/15)
3x Praetorians (L7/15/17)
2x large useless grey things with flappy ears (L9/11)

I simply couldn't manage the win. My cavalry could do the usual: defeat his cavalry on the left, take out his two archers, then hit his infantry from behind (if desired - it slows the battle down too much). The auxiliaries ruled the roost in the centre. But my elephants and Praetorians were as rubbish as usual in this battle, making few kills while running down the clock. Fine if there's a hail of arrows coming off the central hill, but in this case useless.

With my usual tactics the auxiliary infantry just don't have enough time to break the opposition heavies in the end-game. I've plenty of lives to play with, but I'd need at least another 30 seconds of battle time. I tried deploying my elephants and Praetorians on my left flank in order to bring the main battle onto the central scrub, but again the auxiliary take too long to grind the enemy down.

Switched down to 'hard' and I *destroyed* them.

Has anybody else tried the No Missiles Challenge and succeeded? It makes for an interesting campaign, with a number of battles — particularly the limited casualty ones — requiring a significant change to usual tactics.

If anyone wins at Cynocephalae, let me know!

[honvedseg]

I use 2 Auxiliary Archer units in my "typical" force (usually recruited after 2 auxilia, 2 auxiliary cavalry, and at least 2 Prinicipes). Four of them seems much too "un-Roman" to me, especially in the West. Actually, at that time period during the Early or Mid Republic, any at all beyond a handful used in defending fortifications would be atypical, but they're needed to offset the opposing forces' regular use of bow units.

I never saw any reason to pay the astronomical price for Praetorians. Principes pack almost as much punch as Praetorians (and in fact are nearly identical to the much later-period Legionaires for a fraction of the cost), and as a bonus seem to promote more quickly than the overpaid "parade ground troops" as well, which means that you can buy them earlier and give them more levels of experience sooner. They also get to toss sharp objects at their counterparts before tangling up close and personal, and a volley or two of pila can soften up a tough adversary in very short order.

The big gray "Fire-and-Forget torpedos" never impressed me, and I only ever buy them as a "show" item near the end of a campaign when the money becomes nearly irrelevant.

Cynocephalae was a bit tight on the clock on the highest difficulty setting, and I seem to recall having to play it over a couple of times to "get it right", but it was far from the toughest fight in the campaign, IMHO. Doing it with NO archers might be tricky, though. You certainly can't do the bulk of the dirty work with Auxilia in the limited time available.

[moj]

I use 2 Auxiliary Archer units in my "typical" force (usually recruited after 2 auxilia, 2 auxiliary cavalry, and at least 2 Prinicipes). Four of them seems much too "un-Roman" to me, especially in the West.

If the Romans had played Legion Arena they'd have raised more archers

I never saw any reason to pay the astronomical price for Praetorians. Principes pack almost as much punch as Praetorians (and in fact are nearly identical to the much later-period Legionaires for a fraction of the cost), and as a bonus seem to promote more quickly than the overpaid "parade ground troops" as well

In the past when I've exposed greenhorn (near as damn it) principes to the horrors of Vadimo Lake they get chewed up for only a couple of kills, whereas Praetorians will hold their own. My Vadimo Lake / Cisalpine Gaul tactics have been refined since then, though, so I'm prepared to give principes another spin. An added bonus would be that they're less inclined to overthrow my government in mid battle...

The big gray "Fire-and-Forget torpedos" never impressed me, and I only ever buy them as a "show" item near the end of a campaign when the money becomes nearly irrelevant.

They truly are rubbish, except as bodycount-cheap delayers for my archers in limited casualty scenarios. I've tried infantry rushing in from behind them, trucking them in behind infantry, flanking them with infantry... whatever the tactic they'll end up with not much better than a 50/50 kill/casualty ratio if they're against decent infantry with archer support.

Cynocephalae was a bit tight on the clock on the highest difficulty setting, and I seem to recall having to play it over a couple of times to "get it right", but it was far from the toughest fight in the campaign, IMHO. Doing it with NO archers might be tricky, though.

Cynocephalae would be pretty easy with unlimited order points, but there's a lot of steering to do in order to take out their archers, keep your auxiliaries on the hill, keep the heavy mob moving forwards etc. Actually it's not so much order points as the time it takes to give orders. Given 'my' army at any stage of development during the game I'd vote for Cisalpine Gaul as the hardest battle. This might be because it's a long'un: it takes more 'real time' movement before I know if I'm going to win or not. A couple of the time limited 'kill general' missions were absolute nightmares on 'very hard' before I worked out exactly how to draw enemy units out the way, though.

You certainly can't do the bulk of the dirty work with Auxilia in the limited time available.

No, no you can't. I suspect they would win out, but their kill rate is way too slow.

As an aside it would be interesting to have an elapsed game time clock. At Malventum I've sometimes got into the situation where it comes down 192 arrowless archers standing in a river, splashing about with three elephants. I've got time to do the washing up and feed the cats before that one's over. In the interests of realism night should fall, and dawn should break. I'm not sure whether my guys are being killed in combat or are dying of hunger.

Right. I'm going to give 2x each aux unit plus principes a spin. Although having only two archers means I'm not going to be able to win Philippi without making contact with the enemy (bar the legate v general death match, obviously)

[moj]

Right. I'm going to give 2x each aux unit plus principes a spin. Although having only two archers means I'm not going to be able to win Philippi without making contact with the enemy (bar the legate v general death match, obviously)

Tried 2x each aux, plus a pair of velites, plus lots of triarii. Principes look too underpowered. Triarii do appear to do a good job on cavalry charges, but I'm not hugely taken with them. Praetorians appear to be up-and-running straight out of the packet, whereas triarii need time to develop. And as for velites: pah! Their need to be retargeted is a pain in the arse.

Next up: the Army Of Archers...

[moj]

Next up: the Army Of Archers...

Final army composition:
Legate I (57)
Auxilia I (22)
Auxilia II (23)
Auxiliary Archers I (25)
Auxiliary Archers I (25)
Auxiliary Archers III (24)
Auxiliary Archers IV (23)
Auxiliary Archers V (23)
Auxiliary Archers VI (23)
Pretorian Legio I Wenger (18)
Pretorian Legio II Fabregas (18)
Auxiliary Archers VII (19)
Auxiliary Archers VIII (19)
Auxiliary Cavalry I (15)
Auxiliary Cavalry II (14)

Fame: 1,117,110

The Army of Archers worked a treat. Had six archers in place for Vadimo Lake and Cisalpine Gaul, together with the two auxiliaries and a greenhorn Pretorian Legio I Wenger, and won both easily, first time. At Cynocephalae I sat back and the enemy came onto me: another painless win. A couple of relatively early battles gave me headaches, but once I had six archers with heavy weapons I was unstoppable (eight units was probably overkill). Given a big map, defensive opposition and enough time, it's possible to win battles without incurring any casualties.

The downsides were:
a. not the most involving army to manage: too many battles were 'press go and leave'.
b. too many archers on the field meant not enough XP to go around, and subsequently no Miracle Bows. I can confirm that eight high level archers are nowhere near as deadly as four Miracle Bow units at Phiippi.

[honvedseg]

My "final" army composition, in order of recruitment, usually looks more like:

Auxilia
Auxilia
Aux Cav
Aux Cav
Principes
Principes
Aux Archer
Aux Archer
Principes
Principes
Principes
Principes
Aux Cav
Auxilia
Elephants
whatever....

The Principes, like the cavalry, need a couple of promotions before they become truly effective, especially against a few of the already high experience-level opponents the computer throws at you in the mid-game battles. Expect them to break and run on their first outing or two, but they should at least beat up the unit they face. They're pretty tough after a few fights, though.

[kleinemann]

I once tried out buying only 1 group of praetorians very early in the game, selling all my other units in order to afford them, and I actually won the whole campaign with almost no effort at all, exept in the misions where you have only a short time to kill the opposition, then I bought 1 or 2 cavalry to take care of the units in the back. With the praetorians lvl 30-40 they killed any enemy withing a minute, and the general could usually kill 1 or 2 groups of low-level militia with his high level, only problem was their movement speed, which was fixed by buying those cavalry units. If I remember right it even worked on the hardest difficulty setting. Of course it isnt very much fun to have only 1 or 2 group of units on the field though, or at least I didn't think it was.

[moj]

My "final" army composition, in order of recruitment, usually looks more like...

[snip]

You do seem to like to carry on buying! The last time I *need* to deploy everything I've got is Cynocephalae, and I don't buy beyond that point. Grade 4,5,6 armour and weapons for everyone does me nicely.

The Principes, like the cavalry, need a couple of promotions before they become truly effective, especially against a few of the already high experience-level opponents the computer throws at you in the mid-game battles. Expect them to break and run on their first outing or two, but they should at least beat up the unit they face. They're pretty tough after a few fights, though.

Hmmm, I guess I'm impatient: I don't have much time for cavalry, either. There's a 'no objectives' battle -'Final Battle', map 22 - which is played on a large map with a big centre/left woodland to play in. By that time I've got 2x auxilia and 4x auxiliary archers, and it's possible to just sit tight in the woods and come out with 30-40 casualties. If, however, you can buy a Praetorian unit before this battle, send it plowing into the enemy's centre and it will walk off the field with 180-240 kills which will take it straight to Level 6. And I like that

What I always forget with the above is that if the archers have made sufficient headway earlier and all have been given extra arrows and heavy missiles, I find myself on the eve of 'Final Battle' with 1195 gold

[moj]

I once tried out buying only 1 group of praetorians very early in the game, selling all my other units in order to afford them, and I actually won the whole campaign with almost no effort at all, exept in the misions where you have only a short time to kill the opposition, then I bought 1 or 2 cavalry to take care of the units in the back. With the praetorians lvl 30-40 they killed any enemy withing a minute, and the general could usually kill 1 or 2 groups of low-level militia with his high level, only problem was their movement speed, which was fixed by buying those cavalry units.

Heh, I'll have to try that. Doing silly things at 'normal' difficulty could bring a whole new lease of life to the game.