Santa Baby . . .

[spikemesq]

So my poll got no traction.

Here is another question.

I am now very keen on the Spanish as a new project, including that SHNC powerhouse, as well as the other Castillan and Aragonese armies in the 1450+ period.

Some questions about appropriate Knight figures:

Full plate armor?

Shields/No Shields?

Barding/Cloth/Nothing for horses?

Most armies in the period seem to be full plate/no shield/with unbarded or heavy armor on the horse (e.g., Maximillian style or Italian style). But the Spaniards sometimes lag behind (e.g., round shields when others moved on to heaters, etc.).

I looked at madaxe's site but the pictures appear to show both types of knights.

Any good resources for researching these later Medieval Spanish types?

TIA

Spike

[spikemesq]

Bumping for some love.

[karakhanid]

You can see some examples of contemporary depictions of knigts of Santiago here:
http://www.alabarda.net/uniformes/esp/i ... ntiago.htm
see the text below in the enlarged images, are in ancient spanish but datas are written in roman stile.
If you can read spanish or you can get a translation, there is a very nice article about the Castillian new holy brotherhood (SHNC) here:
http://www.alabarda.net/uniformes/esp/i ... mandad.htm
Hope it helps

[Derdertkd95]

SANTIAGOOO!!!!!!!!

[ethan]

google translate is pretty good now and you can just enter the URL.

http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=es&tl=en

[spikemesq]

First, thanks for this information.

Second, looking over the plates, it seems that the 15th century Spaniards used older style equipment (caparison for horses, shields, etc.). Is this right? Or could it merely be an artist's convention to better present the heraldry?

It looks like I may need to use somewhat later riders on earlier horses, but I am not yet certain.

Spike

[peterrjohnston]

I often wondered about that with late period knights in the gothic/italian style full plate armour. A lot of wargames figures for this period come with horse in armour too. But if you look at illustrations, many of the horses had caparisons. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gothic_armor_2.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tourn ... raving.png

Perhaps armour was more likely to survive that then caparisons?

[Ghaznavid]

Or equally likely most artist would see (and indeed) depict Knights at a tournament rather then observe them in an actual battle. We know that tournament equipment was pretty specialised. For example the armour for the rider was a lot heavier as it did not need to allow fighting on foot for extended periods. Instead it was designed to prevent injuries at all cost. (The common misconception that knights had to be lifted onto their horse stems from such tournament armours). Since attacking the horse would be unsporting or even against the rules in a tournament there was no need to burden the horse with both horse armour and the extra heavy tournament armour of the rider. Not to mention that caparisons were probably better looking. Hence we might get lots of depictions of knights with caparisoned horses even after they were considered outdated for battles.

[karakhanid]

First, thanks for this information.

Second, looking over the plates, it seems that the 15th century Spaniards used older style equipment (caparison for horses, shields, etc.). Is this right? Or could it merely be an artist's convention to better present the heraldry?

It looks like I may need to use somewhat later riders on earlier horses, but I am not yet certain.

Spike

In spain, war during 11th to 13th centuries was diferent due the main enemies of the cristian kingdoms ( when they weren't fighting with each other)
were the north african almoravid and almohad armies , with their taifa subjects, so they need more mobility so they used less armor in the horses looking a bit outdated, but at least in the northern kingdoms they had the last models of kinght armor. So IMHO the best chance is to depict contenporary armors for the kingts with lighter bards in the horses, with some heavier knights to face the grenadine armored lancers.
During castillian 15th century civil wars, faced french knights, free companies and english archers so they knew the latest military technologies of the age.
Mikel

[spikemesq]

Mikel, thank you very much for this info.

Do you think that armor styles would include Maximillian, Italian or both?

Also, by the late 15th century, had the Spanish knight dropped shields like other contemporary knights?

Thanks again.

Spike

[karakhanid]

Mikel, thank you very much for this info.

Do you think that armor styles would include Maximillian, Italian or both?

Also, by the late 15th century, had the Spanish knight dropped shields like other contemporary knights?

Thanks again.

Spike

In the age of the SHNC Fernando's aragonese troops were occupying Naples since 1443, and the main market of Castillian wool (Castilla's biggest export at the time) was Flanders, so probably both.
The main type of shield in spain was the Adarga,see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adarga but, IMHO, feel free of use any contemporary shape of shield, even those integrated into the armor, as castillian and aragonese rich knights had, as in the case of the armors, access and money enough to buy any kind of military technology for this, the last of a series of successful(and profitable) campaigns against the taifa kingdoms.
Hope it helps
Mikel

[spikemesq]

Mikel, you are my new favorite Caballero.

So I have the mounted locked down. How about the foot?

Are the Off. Spear best depicted as "proto-pikemen" (e.g., Burgundian pikemen without shields and bearing shortened spears)? Or are they shielded Medieval line infantry?

The dilemma is for figure purchases. I'd like to use Mirliton, but the spearmen options are:

Communal:



Shielded, but too early in armor style. These might still work for the Defensive spear.

Condotta:



Shielded, but perhaps too "Italian" and the shields are pretty distinct.

Burgundian Infantry:





These mix well with the Knights, and I could shorten the pikes. But they lack shields.

OTOH, I could go with Essex for the foot. They have similar troops and sell separate shields if needed. I need to buy some Essex anyway, for the Jinetes.

What are your thoughts?

Spike

[peterrjohnston]

You could also mix in some of Mirliton's Swiss pike figures, they have different poses judging from your photo of the Burgundians, I may be wrong though, check.

Legio Heroica also have a new Swiss range:

http://www.legio-heroica.com/Svizzeri-en.html


Possibly also infantry from Donnington new Low Countries infantry? Not sure what period they are though.

[spikemesq]

Who makes sword and buckler figures?

Spike

[peterrjohnston]

I forgot these:

http://www.venexiaminiatures.com/english.html

Look at the Italian wars figures.

They also have sword and buckler infantry.

Vexillia are the UK distributors.

[spikemesq]

My, aren't those sexy!

Do they mix well with Essex/Mirliton size wise?

[Ghaznavid]

Soso, size wise they are okish (the Inf. is a tad larger then Essex/Mirliton, but not to much, mounted are ok). The problem is more a notable difference in bulk/style. Mirlitons are finer while Essex are much 'smoother' (i.e. the details are nowhere as pronounced as with Venexia). That makes them stand out more then the size IMO. (I've also to say that I found Venexia to be hard to paint, all those endless fiddly and pronounced details require a better painter then me I'm afraid).

[karakhanid]

Mikel, you are my new favorite Caballero.

So I have the mounted locked down. How about the foot?

Are the Off. Spear best depicted as "proto-pikemen" (e.g., Burgundian pikemen without shields and bearing shortened spears)? Or are they shielded Medieval line infantry?

The dilemma is for figure purchases. I'd like to use Mirliton, but the spearmen options are:

Communal:



Shielded, but too early in armor style. These might still work for the Defensive spear.

Condotta:



Shielded, but perhaps too "Italian" and the shields are pretty distinct.

Burgundian Infantry:





These mix well with the Knights, and I could shorten the pikes. But they lack shields.

OTOH, I could go with Essex for the foot. They have similar troops and sell separate shields if needed. I need to buy some Essex anyway, for the Jinetes.

What are your thoughts?

Spike

Hello, I like the italian infantry but the slashed sleeves and the turbans over the helmets don't fit with the age and tey are wearing doublets and not tunics.If you get some round shields(adargas) like venexia sword and buckler?(the figures are depicted using spanish and turkish stile adarga) men's ones and shorten the pikes burgundian infantry could fit, as when a company was recruited the only mandatory armor for the spearmen was the helmet.

Here you can see the SHNC uniform.
I love the venexia jinetes and sword and buckler men.
Hope it helps
Mikel
Edit: Have you seen the donnington ranges? http://shop.ancient-modern.co.uk/wars-o ... s-63-c.asp also http://shop.ancient-modern.co.uk/late-1 ... e-64-c.asp