Charging out of a Gully

[acl]

Had a game with a scrupulous player who knows the rules well and has a habit of digging-out obscure ones to hamper his own army.

Last night he argued that troops a little away from the edge of a gully could not charge out. On the grounds that they could not see the troops they'd charge.

He based this on tournament battle he'd fought v a veteran, who often umpires.

Looking through the rules on the train back, tho, I could not find this rule. While the summary on p 139 says, "Troops in a gully can see out."

Can anyone find this rule. I'd also be interested in hearing how other experienced people play this.

[dave_r]

I think you are correct - it clearly states that troops in a gully can see out. I remember discussion that if troops in a gully fire out they become visible to the BG they shot at.

Troops more than 1" in a gully can't be seen from the outside, but I'm not aware of any rule preventing the BG in the gully seeing out.

[grahambriggs]

Just because someone is a veteran and often umpires, doesn't mean they are correct. If a more experienced player says "the rules say this" it's often a good idea to nicely ask them where it is in the rules.

Veteran players tend to divide into those who have played so much they know most things but don't actually read the rules, and those who read the rules as well as play. Both (the former more so) still get things wrong. An extreme example of this in the DBM world was JD McNeil who I don't think ever read the rules. Hence when you'd play him there was a relatively frequent "JD you can't do that" "why not?" "this rule here says so - see?" "Oh - OK" going on. Of course some people just assumed he knew what he was talking about.

In the gully circumstance, things can get confused. i.e. warband in a gully won't charge uncontrollably out, but it's not because they can't see, it's because it's an exemption to the shock troops charging rules. Perhaps that got mixed up in someone's mind?

[ravenflight]

...it's because it's an exemption to the shock troops charging rules. Perhaps that got mixed up in someone's mind?

It can also be a case of old rules / new rules as well. This was even worse in dbm1 vs dbm1.1 vs dbmmm7.328.1betatest version 3alpha etc. I'm sure it happens in FoG:AM and FoG:AMv2 as well, although I'm not sure I remember an issue with gully charges in V1.

[kevinj]

I remember discussion that if troops in a gully fire out they become visible to the BG they shot at.

The problem here was that Gully is not on the list of terrain types for which this applies (P148). It's on the list for the errata.