Weapons thread (so Ian doesn't get annoyed)

[Redpossum]

Mmmmmm, I don't know about that.

The conventional wisdom is that wooden-keeled ships are limited to 100 feet max keel length.

130 meters is 429 feet, more or less, and I just don't buy that. Sorry, but I'm not going to believe this without some serious archaeological evidence.

Mind, I'm not questioning your research at all. Your research is impeccable. I'm saying I suspect the sources are full of crap =)

You have to remember that the ancients, for all their wisdom, are just not reliable when it comes to numbers. There are impeccable sources that claim the Persians brought an army of a million men to Thermopylae, but anybody who knows anything about logistics will tell you that's a flat impossibility.

I honor Xenophon of Athens almost as much as Bobby Lee, but even in the Anabasis, there are some very questionable numbers.

I suppose it's possible that a wooden-keeled ship 400+ feet in length was built, there's just no way it would swim. Wood is just not a strong enough construction material.

I am sure this post will seem quite arrogant to some who read it, and I apologise for that. But for me, common sense comes before anything else.

[quintusvarus]

Sorry Possum, I'm afraid you are incorrect in saying that the size of timber ship is not possible. In the 15th Century the chinses Admiral Zheng circumnavigated the globe in a fleet of huge ships, the largest being c. 500 feet long. The links below will give you more detail, and there is lots on this on the WWW.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... nexp04.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphic ... 4AVCBQYIV0

[magobarca]

Hi Quint,

Oh yes, you are absolutely correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Before the age of iron and steel many ships were way over 100-feet in length of keel!!!!!!!!! The greater lengths are simply achieved by joining together stout keel timbers to make keels of great lengths.

There may not have ever been a ship over 100-feet made out of a one-piece solid keel though.

Magobarca

[Redpossum]

LOL, ummm, in the Telegraph? And did you notice the phrase "medieval phoenician"? You gotta be joking.

Here, let me share one of my favorites with you...

Or how about this one

My point being, ummm, there's all kinds of crazy stuff out there on the web....

[magobarca]

Believe it or not, North American Oak wood is generally denser and stronger than British Oak, and british cannonballs did sometimes bounce off of Ol ironsides I do believe.

The planet dissolving dust cloud may already be here, just empty the vacum cleaner bag, I just don't know.

I believe in Green Martians per ERB (Edgar Rice Burroughs) so maybe a green baby is possible, and some people do get a green tinge to them when very sick and intoxicated.

Chris

[magobarca]

Ancient Naval warfare site:

http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=8835

Magobarca

[quintusvarus]

Possum,

Don't let editorial cock-ups make you throw out the baby with the bath water. The Daily Telegraph is a major British quality paper, but I merely used it as indicative of much more detailed reporting of the Chinese fleet (It was also for example the subject of a detailed documentary on the BBC). Timber does not have to be used unmodified either, whilst I don't have details of the construction of any of these ships, I would point to the use of laminated timber beams in modern construction, which demonstrate that timber can handle large spans and very high loads if put together in the right way, and as the ancient Chinese were well ahead of Europe at the time they may well have worked out stuructures that could accommodate the loads required. The following web site gives some useful information

http://www.chinastyle.cn/transportation ... ilding.htm

Also I understand the Chinese intend to build a full sized replica of one of these great ships - if they can do it in timber no reason why their ancestors couldn't!

[magobarca]

Hi,

There is a good called The Star Raft by Phillip Snow that concerns that Chinese fleet and its travels.

It seems there is now some archaeological evidence that the Chinese may have sailed up the Mississippi River as far as Illinois, near the mound city of Cahoike (sp?) that tone of the Mound Builder civilizations built.

Magobarca