The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

[Sennacherib]

please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?

[grumpydaddy845]

please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?

Murphy's Law!

[Geffalrus]

please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?

That is rather weird. I don't know the underlying mechanics of the light spear heavy cavalry - I'm not sure if it's a straight "roll of the dice" for stand or evade, or if it calculates the start position for danger and then adjusts that roll of the dice for or against stand/evade.

In the first case, the start position probably was bad, and so evade was the result. At that point, the retreat path is.......randomly generate? Resulting in a worse situation via bad luck. I've had cases like that where I evaded for exactly one space and then got rear-charged and quickly routed.

For the second case........did the lancers start in that dangerous position, or did they have to move spaces to reach that position?

[Athos1660]

^ C'est la vie

[Sennacherib]

please can someone explain me this s... !

in both case i have an heavy cavalry, in the first exemple i have in front one heavy infantry and one heavy cavalry, i'm charged by a javelin light horse, and i flee…. my opponent explain that if we stay in melee i will be flanked by the cavalry, ok why not. the direction of the flee was way worse than my position because i finish in charge reach of a elephant….
Second game i'm charged in front by heavy lancers, if i stay i will be flank by another lancers, i stay…..
WTF !!! what's the rule ?

That is rather weird. I don't know the underlying mechanics of the light spear heavy cavalry - I'm not sure if it's a straight "roll of the dice" for stand or evade, or if it calculates the start position for danger and then adjusts that roll of the dice for or against stand/evade.

In the first case, the start position probably was bad, and so evade was the result. At that point, the retreat path is.......randomly generate? Resulting in a worse situation via bad luck. I've had cases like that where I evaded for exactly one space and then got rear-charged and quickly routed.

For the second case........did the lancers start in that dangerous position, or did they have to move spaces to reach that position?

they were in my front as the second one at two /three case, they move to contact me on the angle so i expose my flank to the second

[Swuul]

First case, the light cavalry charges from flank or rear, right (if I read it right)?
The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.
Which is one of the better uses for light cavalry, if you ask me ---> move to a flanking position of enemy cavalry, position your own heavy cavalry anticipiating where the enemy will evade after you light cavalry charge has forced the enemy cavalry to evade, flank charge with your heavy cavalry for great profit


Second case. From the description I understand the enemy lancers are in frontal contact with your cavalry, was that so?
The answer would be: The chance to evade a frontal charge is (much) smaller, if the charger is already *at the start of the turn* in contact with the one to be charged.
For example cataphract lancers are slow as molasses. Hostile cavalry *always* evades their charge, unless you have moved the cataphracts to contact already on the previous turn.

[Sennacherib]

First case, the light cavalry charges from flank or rear, right (if I read it right)

nope, it charge my left front angle

Second case. From the description I understand the enemy lancers are in frontal contact with your cavalry, was that so?

nope, two hexagone away from it

[Nosy_Rat]

The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.

That's not always true, if there's no other enemy unit nearby non-light cavalry is pretty likely to stand up to the flank charge from light cav. Probably some random factor is invovled, as usual.

Regarding the second case - non-lancer cavalry can sometimes stand up to a lancer charge if they consider their melee chances to be good, ie. ghilman usually would take a stand versus bedouin lancers since they have like 50% win chance in melee.

Doesn't explain why they would do it if under a flank threat, though.

[Swuul]

The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.

That's not always true, if there's no other enemy unit nearby non-light cavalry is pretty likely to stand up to the flank charge from light cav.

Then that has probably changed in some patch, because that was the official answer to the question:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/660160/d ... 946902806/

Also, I have never failed to make a non-light cavalry evade a charge from rear or flank with light cavalry, and I quite often attempt to use that for my advantage.

[Geffalrus]

Then that has probably changed in some patch, because that was the official answer to the question:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/660160/d ... 946902806/

Also, I have never failed to make a non-light cavalry evade a charge from rear or flank with light cavalry, and I quite often attempt to use that for my advantage.

In my recently finished Classical Division match, I used a unit of Nomad Light Horse Archers (40 points, bow, sword) to charge a unit of Armored Noble Cav w/general (60 points, light spear, superior, armored) in the rear. The nomad horse got yellow numbers and stuck to the noble cav, forcing them to turn around and no longer face the rear of my pike phalanx. On the melee round, my light horse got absolutely bodied, double dropped, and fell back a few spaces.

I think it's all about the situation the targeted unit is in, combined with some bit of what unit is doing the charging. I imagine few things would choose to take a rear charge from Prodromoi (light lancer, superior).

[rbodleyscott]

The answer is: Non-light cavalry will always evade if charged in flank or rear.

That's not always true, if there's no other enemy unit nearby non-light cavalry is pretty likely to stand up to the flank charge from light cav.

Then that has probably changed in some patch, because that was the official answer to the question:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/660160/d ... 946902806/

Also, I have never failed to make a non-light cavalry evade a charge from rear or flank with light cavalry, and I quite often attempt to use that for my advantage.

It did change, in update 1.2.5

o Cavalry, camelry and chariots will no longer automatically evade if charged in flank/rear by light horse.

Also update 1.5.12

o Evady Cavalry/Camelry/Light Chariots will no longer allow themselves to be pinned by a light horse charge if they are also threatened with a possible flank/rear charge by non-light troops this turn. This was an unintended consequence of the previous change to prevent Cavalry/Camelry/Light Chariots from automatically evading from flank/rear charges by Light Horse. Note that it is still possible to pin them with light horse that start the turn in an adjacent square if the heavier charge threat is frontal.

You can see all previous update notes by hitting the Patch Notes button on the launcher.

[Swuul]

While Dailami infantry certainly is good medium infantry, they sure are not Legions. I think I will in the future stick with romans and classic antique, my Dailami games in Early Medieval seem to go down the drain Ok, so I will be a one trick pony, but at least I am then a proud pony! Too bad there are no Han Chinese in FoG2 like there was in DBM, then I would be a two-trick pony, hah!

[GeneralKostas]

The Italian Foot was in open terrain. I tested an attack with my Veteran Armoured Cavalry to check the statistics and i saw that my cavalry (in open terrain) was moderately disorder (-22%).

Can you explain that?

Screen_00000000.jpg (550.1 KiB) Viewed 2177 times

Screen_00000002.jpg (493.11 KiB) Viewed 2175 times

[Athos1660]

(...)

The square between your cavalry and the Italian foot is rough terrain.
So you charge from a rough terrain.
Rough terrain moderately disorders mounted troops (-22%).

(edit) btw manual, p. 91 about 'Close Combat on the Edge of Terrain' : "If troops inside a terrain feature are in close combat with troops outside, then the troops outside will suffer the disorder penalties as if inside the terrain if they are attacking into it, but not if the enemy is attacking out of it. Either way the combat will not count as if “in open terrain”."

[melm]

It's the elephants that moderately disordered your cavalry.

[Athos1660]

both rough terrain and elephants
with no cumulative effect

rough terrain, no elephants


open terrain, elephants


rough terrain, elephants

[rbodleyscott]

The tooltips report the combat factors on the basis of which square the chargers will be when the combat is resolved, not the one they are in before they charge.

[GeneralKostas]

(...)

The square between your cavalry and the Italian foot is rough terrain.
So you charge from a rough terrain.
Rough terrain moderately disorders mounted troops (-22%).

(edit) btw manual, p. 91 about 'Close Combat on the Edge of Terrain' : "If troops inside a terrain feature are in close combat with troops outside, then the troops outside will suffer the disorder penalties as if inside the terrain if they are attacking into it, but not if the enemy is attacking out of it. Either way the combat will not count as if “in open terrain”."

I thought it was only the terrain in which the enemy unit stand. Thank you.

[Athos1660]

I thought it was only the terrain in which the enemy unit stand. Thank you.

You're welcome

[GeneralKostas]

Why the enemy archers unit have +27% Combat Strenght Modifier? I suppose because of 75 more fighting men...

Screen_00000002.jpg (573.56 KiB) Viewed 1953 times