Plaid (axis) vs Supermax (allies) [no Supermax pls]

[Rhialto]

I think you need the S. Russian oil in addition to capturing Moscow, Gorki etc. in the long run to win. Better get it while you have the tech advantage; as Trulster said, it won't last. Would it be feasible to capture Astrakhan and then use the port to transport forces down the coast and outflank the defensive line by Grozny?

[Clark]

I think you need the S. Russian oil in addition to capturing Moscow, Gorki etc. in the long run to win. Better get it while you have the tech advantage; as Trulster said, it won't last. Would it be feasible to capture Astrakhan and then use the port to transport forces down the coast and outflank the defensive line by Grozny?

That would be a bold move indeed. Except that Plaid's forces would be out of supply unless a city could be captured quickly. Doesn't strike me as much more feasible than slugging through the mountains.

[Plaid]

This turn I got almost all expected upgrades, so masses of PPs were spent on troop upgrades. I upgraded Tigers further to Panthers (didn't expect armor research to be so fast, I wasted 25 PPs when upgraded 2 times instead of one...hopefully increased surv will pay off with less casualties and better combat results though). Infantry got important ground attack upgrade. I didn't upgraded mechs and bombers because next turn mechs will receive additional +1 surv fixed defences tech and plains will get strategic operations (some range boost and + 2 surv, useful)



My units in Russia were upgrading, no action there.

In the MED american infantry cut off supply one more time. Italian SUBs are gathering to stop allied attempt to restore sea supply.



Much action in atlantic.

North of Britain heavily escorted 77 PP soviet convoy spotted and left alone.



In origin point another 77 PP soviet convoy, but this one should be attacked and was attacked.



In southern origin point small 26 pp british convoy spawned and will be destroyed soon.



In central atlantic american corps transport spotted (looks like HQ for allied airforce). Was heavily damaged by Uboat aswell.



About offering to redeploy my fighters and engage allied bombers - I consider this operation to be very costly in terms of PPs and oil. All that this bombers destroy bombing my resources is less then 12 PPs (repairing only 2 fighter steps) and 1 oil field (3-4 oil income I guess, less then 2 fighter attacks). Allies have 3 CVs and 2+ fighters and they are only slightly lower tech, so fight will be tough and I will lose much much more PPs and oil. Of cource allies can lose even more, but it will help my decisive strike in Russia in no way, when panzers would be paralized without oil 2 hexes away from their objectives. But I actually can increase fighter group in Germany itself, since there is no action in Italy and allies have escorts there (even if I intercept, I engage allied fighter, not bomber, so if I remove some fighters it will affect effectivenes of allied bombers in no way).

This turn most PPs were spent on massive infantry upgrades, but some were used to queue 1 german corps and some were saved.
Italians purchased 2 corps aswell.

[gerones]

Why don´t you deploy your german fighters wings in Belgium-Northern France instead of Berlin so you can attack allied strategic bombers air bases in UK? This way you could protect german industrial areas but also you would inflict damage on allied bombers in England.

[Plaid]

Why don´t you deploy your german fighters wings in Belgium-Northern France instead of Berlin so you can attack allied strategic bombers air bases in UK? This way you could protect german industrial areas but also you would inflict damage on allied bombers in England.

Reason is that if I do it, some hexes within my fighters CAP range will also be in range of allied fighters from England. So fighter will attack for example Arnhem, my fighter will intercept it, and then after all my fighters intercepted, bombers will bomb for free.

[ncali]

Good job on the game so far! I had thought you might be in trouble much earlier, but you have done quite well maintaining a careful and focused offensive in the East while still defending Italy and taking advantage of opportunities Supermax gave you (such as Greece). This game could end up being very close, as the Allies get stronger through '43 and into '44.

On a sidenote, I think this game shows a bit the advantages that can be gained from a very successful 1941 offensive. I think Supermax should have made a more determined defense a bit further west than he did. Sure, he would have lost more troops. But you would have also lost more and it would have given you some tough decisions to make related to the impending winter. More importantly, the Russians really suffered from the loss of all the PP's for the cities and resources they lost so quickly. And you, in turn, benefited from both the low losses and increased production to help build up your army - leading to a pretty strong Axis army by '42. I like to think of it this way - if the Russians keep an extra 10 production in '41, that means a differential of 15 with the Axis per turn (depending on industry levels). That's 15 per turn until at least Spring of '42, and more room to retreat in '42, if needed. It could amount to extra production for the Russians (and lost production for the Axis) for the rest of the game as the Russians are then able to hold on to more in '42 than they otherwise would have.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I have to admit Plaid was heading for defeat after losing Libya so quickly, but Supermax has maybe been too overconfident and wasted units unecessarily. E. g. the invasion of Greece could have yielded better results if he had landed close to Taranto. Supermax needs air support in the Med to get Italy out of the war.

In Russia he has counter attacked a lot, but have lost more ground than he appreciates I guess. I think the changes we made to GS v1.05 regarding Russia has given the Axis a better chance to actually win the war. This game is one such example.

[Plaid]

I have to admit Plaid was heading for defeat after losing Libya so quickly, but Supermax has maybe been too overconfident and wasted units unecessarily. E. g. the invasion of Greece could have yielded better results if he had landed close to Taranto. Supermax needs air support in the Med to get Italy out of the war.

In Russia he has counter attacked a lot, but have lost more ground than he appreciates I guess. I think the changes we made to GS v1.05 regarding Russia has given the Axis a better chance to actually win the war. This game is one such example.

I can't see any relation between loss of Libya and axis defeat. In Libya you have to fight hard for only 3 Italian cities with 1 PP income, with bad supplies and with RN troubling simple reinforcement delivery. If you defend in Italy you have rugged terrain, 5 supply, rail network and no any unit limits.
Also its far less costly, because allies likely will not attack good defencive positions (like river + rough + entrenchment) at all, so you don't have to repair. And in africa its all clear terrain. I think that if you are not executing offencive to the middle east Lybia MUST be abandoned ASAP, because its waste of resources you need in other places.

[Plaid]

If I count correctly, its last SW turn now, and russians will have fair or mud on their turn.
Anyway, they retreat further to the east. Only some penal troops were left in Tula in attempt to slow my future offencive a bit.



This turn I got both planned upgrades, so I upgraded my mechs (new half-track pic included ). Even Romanians got old german HT from somewhere.

My troops slightly moved forward in Orel sector, also reserves were railed.



In Greece hunt for american corps continues, and its destruction is now close.



At sea some luck. I correctly predicted soviet convoy's course and was able to attack it with all 3 subs this time. Looks like bombers gone to bomb Germany, bud destroyers are on the way. This destroyers left previous convoy though, whicn now ran into german SUB near norway. Kriegsmarine does well in destrution of soviet convoys, with planned eastern offencive they are not welcome at all.



This turn german PPs were spent on 2 more mechs, italian ones were saved, I want to buy couple of italian mechs aswell, because I already built lots of infantry, but lack rail to deliver it to the east again.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I can't see any relation between loss of Libya and axis defeat. In Libya you have to fight hard for only 3 Italian cities with 1 PP income, with bad supplies and with RN troubling simple reinforcement delivery. If you defend in Italy you have rugged terrain, 5 supply, rail network and no any unit limits.
Also its far less costly, because allies likely will not attack good defencive positions (like river + rough + entrenchment) at all, so you don't have to repair. And in africa its all clear terrain. I think that if you are not executing offencive to the middle east Lybia MUST be abandoned ASAP, because its waste of resources you need in other places.

The problem is not that you lose Libya, but you invite the Allies to land in Sardinia and Sicily. From there they can threaten to land in southern Italy, Greece or even southern France before the Axis is ready to counter it. If the Axis loses Libya then the Allies don't have to start Operation Torch. Instead these units will be used to land somewhere else, maybe even an early Overlord.

I'm not saying you have to be very offensive in Libya. All that required is enough forces to prevent the initial British forces from taking Libya. This should delay the fall of Libya to 1942. It's enough to send a few Italian corps units and some Germans too just to show. They can be quickly sent back to Greece or Italy when the Allies launch an offensive. If you can delay the loss of Libya until after the American invasion starts then they will often launch Torch. That means it will only be 1943 before the situation in Italy becomes critical. That means you can use almost all PP's against the Russians in 1941-1942. This means you can stop the Russians from getting the upper hand until it's too late for them.

I still believe that Supermax is ahead in this game because he doesn't have to do much to capture an Italian city. He needs a few more fighters and tac bombers to get on the offensive. The western Allies can land in France while the Germans fight in supply zone 3 in Russia with no chance to rail units back to the west. But he has to play very well to be in Berlin in time. It's not a give that he will win.

[afk_nero]

I felt similarly to Stauffenberg, that said you have surprised me with your efficiency and strategy. Keep on following your plan and keep on surprising us all including the "experts".

That said if you plyed anyone reading your AAR they would see your tactics - but that's for another game. Enjoying the constant surprises and I think you are in decent shape. You don't do the things I would do but that's the point of reading about different tactics.

Good luck, if you can keep the west safe then you are in good shape in the east.

[schwerpunkt]

I can't see any relation between loss of Libya and axis defeat. In Libya you have to fight hard for only 3 Italian cities with 1 PP income, with bad supplies and with RN troubling simple reinforcement delivery. If you defend in Italy you have rugged terrain, 5 supply, rail network and no any unit limits.
Also its far less costly, because allies likely will not attack good defencive positions (like river + rough + entrenchment) at all, so you don't have to repair. And in africa its all clear terrain. I think that if you are not executing offencive to the middle east Lybia MUST be abandoned ASAP, because its waste of resources you need in other places.

The problem is not that you lose Libya, but you invite the Allies to land in Sardinia and Sicily. From there they can threaten to land in southern Italy, Greece or even southern France before the Axis is ready to counter it. If the Axis loses Libya then the Allies don't have to start Operation Torch. Instead these units will be used to land somewhere else, maybe even an early Overlord.

I'm not saying you have to be very offensive in Libya. All that required is enough forces to prevent the initial British forces from taking Libya. This should delay the fall of Libya to 1942. It's enough to send a few Italian corps units and some Germans too just to show. They can be quickly sent back to Greece or Italy when the Allies launch an offensive. If you can delay the loss of Libya until after the American invasion starts then they will often launch Torch. That means it will only be 1943 before the situation in Italy becomes critical. That means you can use almost all PP's against the Russians in 1941-1942. This means you can stop the Russians from getting the upper hand until it's too late for them.

I still believe that Supermax is ahead in this game because he doesn't have to do much to capture an Italian city. He needs a few more fighters and tac bombers to get on the offensive. The western Allies can land in France while the Germans fight in supply zone 3 in Russia with no chance to rail units back to the west. But he has to play very well to be in Berlin in time. It's not a give that he will win.

I agree with Stauffenberg on this. Libya is worth trying to hold as long as reasonably possible. Delaying an allied invasion of Sicily till late 42 or 43 means that you can assemble significant strength and delay Sicily's fall considerably. This has been a feature of all of my victories (ie Sicily not falling until late 43 meaning that the Italian mainland was never seriously threatened in 44/45 (which meant hordes of elite Italian INF in the west). In our recent drawn game, Italy fell after Germany (and that was only because your russians captured Venice). In a game I'm currently playing against Massinia_NZ, he delayed me enough in Libya that my landings in Sicily were quite late (I bypassed Libya in the end via Torch) and its only the precarious situation in Germany that has led to the Italian mainland being invaded (my russians ended up capturing Venice to knock them out in late 44).

[Plaid]

Well, probably loss of Libya is invitation for allies to land somewhere else, but they can do it anyway. It will be harder to execute for allies, but it can happen - one turn you would just see invasion fleet near Sicily, Sardinia or southern France (or somewhere else) - and all this axis units in northern africa would help in no way. In fact you would regred that you delivered them there, because you will not be able to rail theml to allied landing.

[Plaid]

My main goal in this game will be <...> finally capture at least Moscow against human opponent (didn't done if for few years and never in GS)

It is written, so be it
Maybe anyone remembers Panzer General Moscow'43 map? Here we have little resurrection.

Moscow looks like best place to attack now - I finally have enough troops and techs to take it quite easily, it is very close to me, defences are not great and it is major PP resource for Russians. Its victory point even .

While most of my troops were slowed by ZoCs, AGN started offencive already - one soviet corps was destroyed, one - damaged and on 3rd I removed entrenchement with fighters. Finns also advance to the east, threating Vologda and Yaroslavl. Kalinin front still can be pocketed.



AGC also advance, Tambov and Tula were captured. Armour is now redeploying from Stalingrad into 4 supply area, to be railed to Moscow aswell. I can's see Max's tanks, but he must have at least 3 more. They are almost deffinetely somewhere between Saratov, Kuibichev and Penza, prepairing another counterattack, like at spring of '42. So another reason not to attack deeper into 3 supply zone, defence will be prepared from Stalingrad and Caucassus to Tambov.



Caucassian front - Grozny oilfield captured. I also will prepare defence line here, since advance through the mountains would be very hard and costly. Also some good soviet armours are here (I still don't mind to bomb it for free).



I prepared traps for both soviet convoys :



Previous convoy used this hex to enter Murmansk waypoint, so I placed sub here.



Sad, but both convoys avoided traps. Now I hope that DDs would avoid them too.

Here is compared stats of my and soviet armour and mech (didn't fing soviet mech, probably none exists).



Tech superiority is good thing, but this AT still makes soviet tanks dangerous for my own.

In both frontlines (caucassian and Moscow) only few corps units are upgraded, while most are still obsolete. Some are even at not full strength. Don't looks like russians have so bad PP income... Probably another avanturistic counter offence will happen soon? I don't fear, but my units better stay within TAC bombers range to be able to punish any offencive easily. This turn I purchased one more TAC for germany, and 1 corps for Italy. American infantry finished off, battle for Greece is over, all quite on the southern front again.

[afk_nero]

Looks good - Moscow will fall.

Do you have an Italian leader in Russia - couldn't see one. Although they are not great the Italians could use all the help they can get and a leader could be important.

[Plaid]

Looks good - Moscow will fall.

Do you have an Italian leader in Russia - couldn't see one. Although they are not great the Italians could use all the help they can get and a leader could be important.

I just started to deploy italians into russia (2 corps railed this turn), no leader yet. Probably I will recruit one next turn or rail one from Greece.

[trulster]

Looking promising! Capturing all of Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad is pretty much a win for the Axis, Russian production will be too reduced. Unless of course, they still pack a large army. But if you also manage to destroy as many Russian corps as possible this summer in addition to capturing Moscow then it is very hard to see Stalin make it back anywhere close to Berlin by 45. There is, of course, the Western Allies...

BTW defensive line in Caucasus it seems would look a lot better with one more inf corps in the mountain hex directly southeast of Maikop

And, I guess it was established that cutting off Caucasus from the rest of Russia by marching to the Black Sea had no effect in GS, or?

[Plaid]

And, I guess it was established that cutting off Caucasus from the rest of Russia by marching to the Black Sea had no effect in GS, or?

They will be unable to rail through axis occupied hexes to the north, I think. They would receive supply level 4 from Basra and would be able to rail within Caucasus though.

[schwerpunkt]

Plaid,
Watch your oil - 359 doesnt give you much margin for error and your TACs are going to burn it up at a rate. With the Grozny oil and being careful with using your tanks, you should be ok as long as Ploesti is kept protected.

[afk_nero]

Just a thought - it may be worthwhile attacking through the mountains in the south - the defences dont look that strong to me. WIth unlimited oil you win this game.

I may just be dreaming here of course - but does look a little tempting.