Babarosa ( Morris vs Supermax) Welcome Supermax

[Morris]

Wait... what? You think that you can win, so you quit? Is it a joke? Just continue playing and show us that your Barbarossa is invincible!

No , I never think I can win . It is too early to say win or lose for a pbem in 1941 like this . I have explained the reason why I quit . My babarosa is not invincible . No strategy is invincible . but It will defeat the rival which is not formiliar with it . Whenever they get used to it ,then they will find a better strategy to defeat it . But that strategy will be a easy learn strategy which is not depending on weather , skill & luck .

I won't continue it because I felt tired of explaining the truth of the pbem by taking so many times . There were several AARs by others like Tor , Duncan , Sean , Plaid ,Zechi ,Cliff ,etc . I have never had this kind of feeling before . Since they all explained truth of the pbem (no matter who is on upper hand, who will win ), no big words , no lie , no one-sided opinion . I have played AAR with Max for three times ( all stopped by accident ). I never said my strategy is invincible , & Max always declare he can beat me down easily even if he had no experience to play with me .So maybe Max is invincible ! I think i am brave enough to challenge a super invincible player , but it should be on a base of objective & respect . Otherwise I choose quit . I hope my poor English explaIn my idea well .

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Can't you and Supermax just continue the game without posting in the AAR?

[Cybvep]

Ok, but if the truth is that either side can win, then why not just continue playing? Seriously, you don't have to explain that much, just describe your moves.

[Clark]

Ok, but if the truth is that either side can win, then why not just continue playing? Seriously, you don't have to explain that much, just describe your moves.

Right. And if you would like to keep supermax from commenting on your AAR, you should post NO SUPERMAX in the title.

[Crazygunner1]

Morris

The issue for most players in this forum has been that they couldnt beat your strategy...so they wrongly assumed there is an balance issue in the game wich you have found and could tweak to your benefit. You have perhaps given a spark to that believe as well and that in turn has stirred up a lot of heated discussions. This is by no means a bad thing on the contrary, helps to develop the game. Some people might have taken it a bit to serious and perhaps mixed in a lot of emotions when writing in the forum.

I dont see that your strategy is in any way superior to others and i think Max has proven that. It does show however that people who are not willing or do not adapt to their opponents playing style, will most likely suffer a defeat. That is what makes this game still great.

Crazyg

[supermax]

???

Wow, i dont think more can be said about this... Maybee some

Honestly Moriss, you can do what you want and expect what you want, but the simple truth is that every time you do an AAR, you expose yourself to criticisim.

Also, when you beat anyone with ease with what could be called a simple, one-sided strategy, you do expose yourself with criticisim. I mean, how many AAR are running or centered around you? Or how many have you had on games played against you? I think you are kind of asking for the way you feel now.

You are a star now whitin the community of gamers of CEAW, you have to live with the glory and with the criticisim. I understand what you feel now, since you feel everyone is against you and that they relish it when you loose. I went thru it a while ago because i was kicking every ones asses... but then i got a amazing upset losses by not leaving a GAR in Rome, and people relished in that defeat, but i did continue the game to the very end even if i lost Italy late 1940. So not finishing games when they dont go your way makes you look bad, you should change your attitude.

So i would suggest relaxing a little bit on the AAR and you will see that things will cool down.

Also, there is no more beta-testing needed, we have the final version now. Just relax and enjoy your games instead of trying to frind holes in the engine or game.

Please continue your games, not just the ones you feel arent still fun for you.

In our game, you knew full well by continuing attacking like you did would make you loose the game. You know, as well as i told you after the first turn of my offensive, that all you needed to do with your army was to retreat after my first move. But you didnt do the sensible and instead of just a bloody nose, you now have a disaster. Anyway, its very easy to claim that you intentionnaly lost the game one its done and that you are beta-testing.

So, anyway, whatever, i am very dissapointed that you act the way you just did. the worst thing you can do playing a game against me is abandon the game. Its pisses me off to waste my time like that, and normally i dont ever play with thay player anymore. I did make an exception in your case, but that will be the last time if you dont continue this game. And i think Borger's suggestion is good we should continue the game without an AAR. My purpose was to show that your strategy is easy to beat, so now lets just play and have fun without the AAR.

[supermax]

Morris

The issue for most players in this forum has been that they couldnt beat your strategy...so they wrongly assumed there is an balance issue in the game wich you have found and could tweak to your benefit. You have perhaps given a spark to that believe as well and that in turn has stirred up a lot of heated discussions. This is by no means a bad thing on the contrary, helps to develop the game. Some people might have taken it a bit to serious and perhaps mixed in a lot of emotions when writing in the forum.

I dont see that your strategy is in any way superior to others and i think Max has proven that. It does show however that people who are not willing or do not adapt to their opponents playing style, will most likely suffer a defeat. That is what makes this game still great.

Crazyg

Exactly!!! Its just a matter of playing in extreme like he does. Its not like i love to do that, but if you dont accept the simple fact that you have to adapt your opponent's playing style, then you cannot win. Some players (like Joe Rock and you for example) have adapted their style against me, and appart from the first and second game which i trounced both, now its very hard for me to beat them if i ever.

[rkr1958]

I went thru it a while ago because i was kicking every ones asses... but then i got a amazing upset losses by not leaving a GAR in Rome, and people relished in that defeat, but i did continue the game to the very end even if i lost Italy late 1940.

Of all the games you've played this one impressed me the most. It impressed me the most not because you lost and lost due to failing to garrison Rome; but due to the fact that you continued the game and finished it without once complaining about this.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I agree with Ronnie. Playing on after a major setback shows character. I see so many players quitting when things are going badly. This is what I hate the most when playing against people. I invest a lot of time in my games and having to stop just because my opponent don't want to lose is not fun at all.

It's ok to halt a game in the beta phase because a new version is available or we have got all the answers we needed from the game. I've stopped several games I was about to win because we had made an important tweak and wanted to try again with the tweak to learn about the difference.

Morris has to understand that when he claims he has found the ultimate strategy for the Axis (or the Allies) then people watch his games with interest. People fear he's right and that it could ruin the long term fun of the game. Therefore many players make a sigh of relief when they see Supermax being able to crush Morris with the strategy that Morris has crushed most others with. It means it's possible to counter even the most extreme strategy if done properly.

I hope to see the same against the Axis fortress strategy made by Supermax. At the moment we haven't seen it, but I think someone will be able to find the strategy that can win against his strategy.

So when people are commenting they aren't doing that because they're against Morris as a person. On the contrary, I see people having a lot of respect for what he has managed to do with his games. People are just relieved that it's possible to beat him if you play like Supermax shows. That indicates the game might be more balanced that some believed.

I believe the biggest frustration people have had is the numerous tweaks coming after Morris has shown the weakness of GS v2.0 and GS v2.1 by finding a strategy that can roll over his opponents. Every time a tweak has been found and he conjured up new ways to crush his opponents. This has probably delayed the release of GS v2.1 by many months, but in doing so I believe the final version we release will be more balanced than it could have been otherwise. So we should be glad he showed us these weaknesses so we could make a better game.

People in this thread are probably relieved that we don't need to make yet another tweak because of Morris'es latest strategy. It's beatable and it's what I said some weeks ago. I then said we need to find the counter to Morris'es strategy on the battlefield instead of tweaking again. Supermax proved that this statement was probably right.

There won't be more tweaks to GS v2.1. It will be released as is. Any tweaks will be in GS v2.2, if at all.

So my recommendation is to just continue all the beta games you're now playing if you play them with a version RC11 or later.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Another player I'm very impressed with is Joerock who's still playing on in his game against Morris despite seeing the Germans close to Omsk. Joe played with a version prior to RC11 so Morris pushed faster into Russia than what would have been possible now. So they could have abandoned the game and tried again with the new rules with rail conversion etc. Morris and Joe decided to play on and kudos to both for doing so. They wanted to finish a very interesting game. Not because we needed the data as beta testers, but because THEY enjoyed the game.

I think Morris should think about the same regarding his game with Supermax. Play on because both of you enjoy the fight. Not because you have to collect data to us (the beta testers).

[Cybvep]

People in this thread are probably relieved that we don't need to make yet another tweak because of Morris'es latest strategy. It's beatable and it's what I said some weeks ago. I then said we need to find the counter to Morris'es strategy on the battlefield instead of tweaking again. Supermax proved that this statement was probably right.

With the emphasis put on the word "probably". This is Supermax we are talking about here. He is one of the few people who manage to beat various Morris' strategies, but other players who try to copy Supermax often fail to achieve the same result. This has already happened before and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

Morris, heads up! After all, you are a celebrity here .

[joerock22]

Another player I'm very impressed with is Joerock who's still playing on in his game against Morris despite seeing the Germans close to Omsk. Joe played with a version prior to RC11 so Morris pushed faster into Russia than what would have been possible now. So they could have abandoned the game and tried again with the new rules with rail conversion etc. Morris and Joe decided to play on and kudos to both for doing so. They wanted to finish a very interesting game. Not because we needed the data as beta testers, but because THEY enjoyed the game.

I think Morris should think about the same regarding his game with Supermax. Play on because both of you enjoy the fight. Not because you have to collect data to us (the beta testers).

I honestly never seriously considered quitting that game, and not because Morris was doing the AAR. I was quite frustrated earlier, but now I seem to be doing better and having more fun with it. I'm playing with a very small chance at victory, but the GS victory conditions give me something to aim for. A minor or major defeat is much better than ultimate, which is what you have to consider the result when you quit a game.

Bottom line: if you're not willing to invest the time to try to win a "better" defeat, then you really can't play GS.

[supermax]

People in this thread are probably relieved that we don't need to make yet another tweak because of Morris'es latest strategy. It's beatable and it's what I said some weeks ago. I then said we need to find the counter to Morris'es strategy on the battlefield instead of tweaking again. Supermax proved that this statement was probably right.

With the emphasis put on the word "probably". This is Supermax we are talking about here. He is one of the few people who manage to beat various Morris' strategies, but other players who try to copy Supermax often fail to achieve the same result. This has already happened before and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened again.

Morris, heads up! After all, you are a celebrity here .

Thats just the thing here.

Its easy to copy. Ive clearly shown to all how. Produce around 7 tanks-2, 3 mechs, only invest in 4-5 research point, place them in Voronezh, Stalingrad and just close to Maikop in the south and wait for the germans to cross the rostov area into the Dangerous waters of the Caucasus-Stalingrad. There is no solution to this as they put most of their troops in that front, so as the russians you will also concentrate your army there, and its proven that the russians have more troops in 41, just less quality. But you will overwhelm the germans for a critical 2-3 turns which will enable you 1- to repulse the german assault, 2- demolish is army. The germans dont have any rail support so cant even bring new reinforcements...

Even if the Russians get a ton of losses the german advance will be stopped cold.

[supermax]

I agree with Ronnie. Playing on after a major setback shows character. I see so many players quitting when things are going badly. This is what I hate the most when playing against people. I invest a lot of time in my games and having to stop just because my opponent don't want to lose is not fun at all.

It's ok to halt a game in the beta phase because a new version is available or we have got all the answers we needed from the game. I've stopped several games I was about to win because we had made an important tweak and wanted to try again with the tweak to learn about the difference.

Morris has to understand that when he claims he has found the ultimate strategy for the Axis (or the Allies) then people watch his games with interest. People fear he's right and that it could ruin the long term fun of the game. Therefore many players make a sigh of relief when they see Supermax being able to crush Morris with the strategy that Morris has crushed most others with. It means it's possible to counter even the most extreme strategy if done properly.

I hope to see the same against the Axis fortress strategy made by Supermax. At the moment we haven't seen it, but I think someone will be able to find the strategy that can win against his strategy.

So when people are commenting they aren't doing that because they're against Morris as a person. On the contrary, I see people having a lot of respect for what he has managed to do with his games. People are just relieved that it's possible to beat him if you play like Supermax shows. That indicates the game might be more balanced that some believed.

I believe the biggest frustration people have had is the numerous tweaks coming after Morris has shown the weakness of GS v2.0 and GS v2.1 by finding a strategy that can roll over his opponents. Every time a tweak has been found and he conjured up new ways to crush his opponents. This has probably delayed the release of GS v2.1 by many months, but in doing so I believe the final version we release will be more balanced than it could have been otherwise. So we should be glad he showed us these weaknesses so we could make a better game.

People in this thread are probably relieved that we don't need to make yet another tweak because of Morris'es latest strategy. It's beatable and it's what I said some weeks ago. I then said we need to find the counter to Morris'es strategy on the battlefield instead of tweaking again. Supermax proved that this statement was probably right.

There won't be more tweaks to GS v2.1. It will be released as is. Any tweaks will be in GS v2.2, if at all.

So my recommendation is to just continue all the beta games you're now playing if you play them with a version RC11 or later.

On the fortress Europa strategy, i think there is a way to do it, but i guess i wont say

Not to say i will do it. When i want to win, i will do that. When i just want to have fun then i'll go and do the regular thing and see me loose probably

[Morris]

Hi everyone :

I am so surprised when I got up & open the forum , there are so many bullets flying towards me ! Although I am always very busy during the weekend (stay with my 4 year old daughter ), but it seems I have to say something to make some thing clear !!

1 I am not & never will be the one who quit the game because it is going to lose . I do hate this kind of manners ! I have played with more than 25 beta testers for more than 80 pbems , I have never quit any pbem including the two AAR which I was defeated by Sean & Zechi . But I have a list of player who quit the our pbem without any notice . I will keep it as a secret . but please do remember I am not the guy with this kind of bad manner ! This is not my style !

2 There are almost 15 AARs which is related with me during the last several months . All of them going well without any criticism but the three AARs with Max .So you can’t say whenever I play AAR ,the criticism will be there !!!! I am not a star & I also do not want to be . I just want to play a game which I ‘d love to spend my spare time . We can dicuss about the strategy , even if the opinion is quite against mine . but I am boring to explain the truth of the pbem which I don’t need to do it in others AARs . I hate liar & boaster ! They can't be my friend . My principle is to do everthing objectively & fair .

3 I think it is no problem to stop this game as I had explained the reason in my last reply . I am not afraid of failure , just no more interest in it ! If someone believe he has won , it has nothing to do with me ! Just believe it ! I have to say if you always judge a game's win or lose in 1941 , you are still a beginner of GS ! The AAR with Joe is coming to 1943 , Axis have got great advantage ,but still can't assure 50% of final victory !

Besides this , I will never bow to an ultimaturn threaten !! I never care about I am on or out of whose list ! But If you really like that I will be hornor to inform you that you are the first one on my list(which I didn’t have it before) too!!

4 regarding to strategy of defeating my Babarosa , Let’s make it simple & brief :
you will soon find it from the AAR with Duncan & Joe . Maybe also from the one with Plaid ( it is too early now). Max’s strategy is amzing & creative ,but if you will be the Axis player in the future ,will you jump into this trap again ? absolutely not ! If not , this strategy will become useless .

5 Regarding to GS2.1’s balance ,it is almost perfect . But between two equal lvl player , Allies have minor advantage. But it is no need to do anymore tweak now .

[supermax]

Lol.

I rest my case.

[Blathergut]

I think some of the critics need to reflect upon themselves instead. Morris is probably the beta team's most valuable player in that he has caused many changes and tweaks which have step by step improved this game. What he has done goes far beyond this soul's ability (as you all saw, but I was still willing to play that game and endure the criticism in attempt to improve the game)(but haven't played a game since). The criticism can rub deep, even if it's not intended to. I think we all owe Morris a huge thank you for how he has played and the effort he has put into the beta team and his AARs.

[Clark]

Hi everyone :

I am so surprised when I got up & open the forum , there are so many bullets flying towards me ! Although I am always very busy during the weekend (stay with my 4 year old daughter ), but it seems I have to say something to make some thing clear !!

1 I am not & never will be the one who quit the game because it is going to lose . I do hate this kind of manners ! I have played with more than 25 beta testers for more than 80 pbems , I have never quit any pbem including the two AAR which I was defeated by Sean & Zechi . But I have a list of player who quit the our pbem without any notice . I will keep it as a secret . but please do remember I am not the guy with this kind of bad manner ! This is not my style !

2 There are almost 15 AARs which is related with me during the last several months . All of them going well without any criticism but the three AARs with Max .So you can’t say whenever I play AAR ,the criticism will be there !!!! I am not a star & I also do not want to be . I just want to play a game which I ‘d love to spend my spare time . We can dicuss about the strategy , even if the opinion is quite against mine . but I am boring to explain the truth of the pbem which I don’t need to do it in others AARs . I hate liar & boaster ! They can't be my friend . My principle is to do everthing objectively & fair .

3 I think it is no problem to stop this game as I had explained the reason in my last reply . I am not afraid of failure , just no more interest in it ! If someone believe he has won , it has nothing to do with me ! Just believe it ! I have to say if you always judge a game's win or lose in 1941 , you are still a beginner of GS ! The AAR with Joe is coming to 1943 , Axis have got great advantage ,but still can't assure 50% of final victory !

Besides this , I will never bow to an ultimaturn threaten !! I never care about I am on or out of whose list ! But If you really like that I will be hornor to inform you that you are the first one on my list(which I didn’t have it before) too!!

4 regarding to strategy of defeating my Babarosa , Let’s make it simple & brief :
you will soon find it from the AAR with Duncan & Joe . Maybe also from the one with Plaid ( it is too early now). Max’s strategy is amzing & creative ,but if you will be the Axis player in the future ,will you jump into this trap again ? absolutely not ! If not , this strategy will become useless .

5 Regarding to GS2.1’s balance ,it is almost perfect . But between two equal lvl player , Allies have minor advantage. But it is no need to do anymore tweak now .

Perhaps it's different where you come from, but my general understanding is that when someone quits a game (even if the final outcome isn't perfectly clear) it's considered a forfeit which equals a loss. Doesn't matter if it's chess, a football game, or a computer strategy game. I can understand if maybe supermax rubs you the wrong way that it might not be fun to play him. Or to have him posting in your AAR. But you have a choice not to play him in the first place and not to welcome him to your AAR! But he's very good, so losing to him is no shame at all. And he will likely grow on you as he did for most of us around here.

Also, I can assure you that your English is understandable and fairly fluent, so please don't feel self-conscious about that at all. I'm American, and I lived and worked for three years in Austria - I know what it feels like to not feel confident in your language skills. Heck, since I've come back, I'm not too confident in my English, either!

Anyway, I hope you'll keep playing and posting AARs in general and with supermax in particular.

[Morris]

I think some of the critics need to reflect upon themselves instead. Morris is probably the beta team's most valuable player in that he has caused many changes and tweaks which have step by step improved this game. What he has done goes far beyond this soul's ability (as you all saw, but I was still willing to play that game and endure the criticism in attempt to improve the game)(but haven't played a game since). The criticism can rub deep, even if it's not intended to. I think we all owe Morris a huge thank you for how he has played and the effort he has put into the beta team and his AARs.

Thanks a lot for your praise ! I don't know how to express my feeling after reading this !It is just like a cup of hot chocolate in Severe winter in Russia !
But I have to say No one owe me anything ! What I have done for this game is my great pleasure & beta tester's basic responsibility . I 'd love to !Hope some day we may have a pbem !

[Morris]

Hi everyone :

I am so surprised when I got up & open the forum , there are so many bullets flying towards me ! Although I am always very busy during the weekend (stay with my 4 year old daughter ), but it seems I have to say something to make some thing clear !!

1 I am not & never will be the one who quit the game because it is going to lose . I do hate this kind of manners ! I have played with more than 25 beta testers for more than 80 pbems , I have never quit any pbem including the two AAR which I was defeated by Sean & Zechi . But I have a list of player who quit the our pbem without any notice . I will keep it as a secret . but please do remember I am not the guy with this kind of bad manner ! This is not my style !

2 There are almost 15 AARs which is related with me during the last several months . All of them going well without any criticism but the three AARs with Max .So you can’t say whenever I play AAR ,the criticism will be there !!!! I am not a star & I also do not want to be . I just want to play a game which I ‘d love to spend my spare time . We can dicuss about the strategy , even if the opinion is quite against mine . but I am boring to explain the truth of the pbem which I don’t need to do it in others AARs . I hate liar & boaster ! They can't be my friend . My principle is to do everthing objectively & fair .

3 I think it is no problem to stop this game as I had explained the reason in my last reply . I am not afraid of failure , just no more interest in it ! If someone believe he has won , it has nothing to do with me ! Just believe it ! I have to say if you always judge a game's win or lose in 1941 , you are still a beginner of GS ! The AAR with Joe is coming to 1943 , Axis have got great advantage ,but still can't assure 50% of final victory !

Besides this , I will never bow to an ultimaturn threaten !! I never care about I am on or out of whose list ! But If you really like that I will be hornor to inform you that you are the first one on my list(which I didn’t have it before) too!!

4 regarding to strategy of defeating my Babarosa , Let’s make it simple & brief :
you will soon find it from the AAR with Duncan & Joe . Maybe also from the one with Plaid ( it is too early now). Max’s strategy is amzing & creative ,but if you will be the Axis player in the future ,will you jump into this trap again ? absolutely not ! If not , this strategy will become useless .

5 Regarding to GS2.1’s balance ,it is almost perfect . But between two equal lvl player , Allies have minor advantage. But it is no need to do anymore tweak now .

Perhaps it's different where you come from, but my general understanding is that when someone quits a game (even if the final outcome isn't perfectly clear) it's considered a forfeit which equals a loss. Doesn't matter if it's chess, a football game, or a computer strategy game. I can understand if maybe supermax rubs you the wrong way that it might not be fun to play him. Or to have him posting in your AAR. But you have a choice not to play him in the first place and not to welcome him to your AAR! But he's very good, so losing to him is no shame at all. And he will likely grow on you as he did for most of us around here.

Also, I can assure you that your English is understandable and fairly fluent, so please don't feel self-conscious about that at all. I'm American, and I lived and worked for three years in Austria - I know what it feels like to not feel confident in your language skills. Heck, since I've come back, I'm not too confident in my English, either!

Anyway, I hope you'll keep playing and posting AARs in general and with supermax in particular.

Hi Clark :

Regarding to welcome Max to my AAR , I won't regret . There was no secret in my AAR . I let him in just for easy discussion about this AAR . Also I never felt shame when I was defeated by Sean & Zechi . To be defeated by Max should be a glory ! I like it . but the direct reason I choose quit is that : people seems believe Max's words even if the prove of screenshot & data against his words . Anyone can analysis the data & find the truth ,but seems no one like to do it but just keep pressure & criticism to me .I am so tired of hopeless explaination .So I choose quit .

I am sure I will keep playing the present AARs . But with Max ,God knows , I am on his black list now & so is he .