DLC 1940 Prediction Forum Game

[Nils60]

My choices:

4D Narvik includes Battle of the German mountaineers and paratroopers with the Norwegians, includes Battle of the German Destroyers with British Reinforcements and the fight with british and french troops about the port of Narvik. That makes for a very diversified battle

5D Battle of Britain was an air force only battle and a very epic battle for that. First phase clearing the British Navy from the Channel, second phase destroying airports and Radar stations in southern England and third phase night attacks on British Industry and London (even if that's a little morally controversial it's still historical true). Besides the whole time Germans fighting for Air superiority and the British against annihilation

5C Finnish Winter War and the finnish ski troops should have an appearance in AO 40!

[kondi754]

Re: concentration of armored vehicles in limited area at the same time

So then the largest tank battle would be Prokhorovka in result, because never before such a large number of tanks has been concentrated in such a small area, approx. 1200-1500 armored vehicles from both sides depending on the sources
The Battle of Dubno/Brody lasted more than a week, the operations covered vast areas of western Ukraine and Soviet armored units entered the battle in parts, but many of these more than 3,000 Soviet tanks never reached the front lines, were abandoned by their crews due to failure or lack of fuel, in addition, Stukas did a great job for the Germans.
Similarly El Alamein, tank fights sometimes took place on select sections of the front, when British engineers eventually passed through German minefields, and many Allied tanks were either eliminated or stuck in minefields. There were tank meetings of both sides, but at most several hundred tanks fought each other at once.
However I have to read about Senno-Lepel counteoffensive of the Red Army, it seems to me that this is a good lead and it actually may be the biggest armored battle in history in the strict sense

[Rhaeg]

Hard to pick just 2, but I'll go with the 2 Italian scenarios 2C and 5E.

IMO Axis Operations should be about the Axis (minus Japan, which really needs its own DLC line for obvious reasons), not just Germany. Some scenarios focusing on Italy without Germany, perhaps as a small separate track in an AO DLC, would feel fresh and there's more than enough material for a couple of Italian scenarios. Not much of a chance they'll actually make it into AO1940, but who knows, if enough people show their interest than maybe sometime in the future a single Italian DLC covering the 1935-1943 period (starting with Ethiopia) could be done.

[kondi754]

It was most certainly not a Kursk-esque affair, I assure you.

No set up of Allied defenses in depth, nothing of that sort. The French were rushing into Belgium as reinforcements.

I think the battle just gets overlooked because of the main drama always focused on Sedan and the immediate aftermath of that. It would certainly be an interesting battle from the Allied perspective. You crash head on against the German advance that is rampaging across Belgium, and you think you have succeeded in stopping their advance. Only to learn the horrible truth that it was all just a diversion, and the real Panzer force is cutting you off before you even know it's happening.

But I think Hannut should be very interesting from Axis pov too
Okay, this is a diversion, but a total defeat in the north and giving the field to the French would also cause a far-reaching change of plans in the south. I have doubts whether Hitler would have allowed Guderian to attack to the English Channel from Sedan bridgehead in the event of a complete collapse of the attack in the north and even the risk of the Allies entering German territory from Belgium.

I will happily play your battle if it makes it. But I do not believe your idea of a successful outcome for the allies deterring Hitler from attacking through the Ardennes and crossing the Meuse at Sedan could have happened. The best I can tell the two battles seemed to have been fought almost concurrently.
I am also not convinced from reading Guderian’s own words that the modified Schlieffen plan was a feint. He states there was considerable resistance from Army High Command to Manstein’s plan to attack through the Ardennes and that only the crash of a courier carrying invasion plans caused its consideration. He also claims only he, Manstein, and Hitler believed it was possible. He states in the meeting with Hitler that General Busch commanding Sixteenth Army cried out, “Well, I don’t believe you will cross the river in the first place!”
It will definitely be an interesting battle to play. If you had not lobbied so hard for it I never would have bothered learning about it.

Regards,

I lobbied for this because it's worth to show in PzC2 IMHO

Re: Hitler/OKW and French campaign
As the entire campaign showed, Hitler was afraid all the times of the French infantry and tanks that could cut off his armored divisions on their way to the coast from the infantry following them.
He tried to stop them several times (luckily Guderian and Rommel were on the frontline with their spearheads and could sabotage OKW's orders, claiming they hadn't reached them)
Hitler in 1940 was very shaky in his decisions. We must also remember that the Germans themselves had great respect for the strongest army in Europe - the French, and later the German generals were very surprised how easily it was possible to defeat the eternal enemy. But on May 14-15, nothing was decided yet, all the pieces were in the game
Therefore, I believe that a severe defeat in the North would awaken French demons in the German command. Fall Gelb was an excellent plan, but also a risky one - one mistake and this campaign would turn into a trench warfare just like in the fall of 1914

[Vorskl]

Re: concentration of armored vehicles in limited area at the same time

So then the largest tank battle would be Prokhorovka in result, because never before such a large number of tanks has been concentrated in such a small area, approx. 1200-1500 armored vehicles from both sides depending on the sources
The Battle of Dubno/Brody lasted more than a week, the operations covered vast areas of western Ukraine and Soviet armored units entered the battle in parts, but many of these more than 3,000 Soviet tanks never reached the front lines, were abandoned by their crews due to failure or lack of fuel, in addition, Stukas did a great job for the Germans.
Similarly El Alamein, tank fights sometimes took place on select sections of the front, when British engineers eventually passed through German minefields, and many Allied tanks were either eliminated or stuck in minefields. There were tank meetings of both sides, but at most several hundred tanks fought each other at once.
However I have to read about Senno-Lepel counteoffensive of the Red Army, it seems to me that this is a good lead and it actually may be the biggest armored battle in history in the strict sense

a suggested starting point
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/histor ... attle.html

Here is another issue with the the WWII history: the generals that got power promoted their operations and positioned them as key. The extreme was Brezhnev promoting the Novorossiysk landing operation (aka Malaya Zemlya) as the key operation of the Great Patriotic war (coz he was involved in its planning). If you ask any ex-USSR player here what was the first liberated Soviet city, the most will reply 'Yelnya' (as it happened under Zhukov's watch). While chronologically Przemyśl was liberated on June 23 by NKVD (however since it ended up in Poland it was not a good candidate for propaganda); followed by Zhlobin and Rogachev cities liberated by Kuznetsov's army in July 1941. Yet almost everyone will name 'Yelnya'.

[kondi754]

Re: concentration of armored vehicles in limited area at the same time

So then the largest tank battle would be Prokhorovka in result, because never before such a large number of tanks has been concentrated in such a small area, approx. 1200-1500 armored vehicles from both sides depending on the sources
The Battle of Dubno/Brody lasted more than a week, the operations covered vast areas of western Ukraine and Soviet armored units entered the battle in parts, but many of these more than 3,000 Soviet tanks never reached the front lines, were abandoned by their crews due to failure or lack of fuel, in addition, Stukas did a great job for the Germans.
Similarly El Alamein, tank fights sometimes took place on select sections of the front, when British engineers eventually passed through German minefields, and many Allied tanks were either eliminated or stuck in minefields. There were tank meetings of both sides, but at most several hundred tanks fought each other at once.
However I have to read about Senno-Lepel counteoffensive of the Red Army, it seems to me that this is a good lead and it actually may be the biggest armored battle in history in the strict sense

a suggested starting point
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/histor ... attle.html

Here is another issue with the the WWII history: the generals that got power promoted their operations and positioned them as key. The extreme was Brezhnev promoting the Novorossiysk landing operation (aka Malaya Zemlya) as the key operation of the Great Patriotic war (coz he was involved in its planning). If you ask any ex-USSR player here what was the first liberated Soviet city, the most will reply 'Yelnya' (as it happened under Zhukov's watch). While chronologically Przemyśl was liberated on June 23 by NKVD (however since it ended up in Poland it was not a good candidate for propaganda); followed by Zhlobin and Rogachev cities liberated by Kuznetsov's army in July 1941. Yet almost everyone will name 'Yelnya'.

Thanks for the link
Yelnya was a beating of the head against a wall and a terrible slaughter of the Russian infantry (like all Zhukov's operations in 1941-43, however, he still used this tactic later on, but the Wehrmacht was much weaker).
Rzhev is the best example. After war Soviet propaganda made the story that Zhukov commanded the fronts at Stalingrad and Op.Uranus was his next success to cover painful defeat at Rzhev of this brilliant strategist. The truth is that he persuaded Stalin in 1942 to make the main Red Army offensive at the center of the front on Rzhev Salient, where he had received a terrible beating from the Germans.
I know Brezhniev was the front commissar in the Caucasus and participated in some way in the Black Sea operations as a member of the Front's war council but I don't think his contribution was significant except for drinking vodka in liters

EDIT. Re: Zhukov
On the other hand, the Red Army units in 1941-43 were mostly poorly trained, there were few good commanders at the army or corps level, there were few tanks but Soviets still had a lot of artillery and unlimited human resources so maybe the infantry wave attacks were the only possible strategy?

[Scrapulous]

I notice a shocking lack of votes for 2D, German core fighting in China.

I would like to call attention to the fact that this electronic balloting is very unreliable, and very prone to hacking and other malfeasance. It's a terrible situation with a lot of fraud that goes on, a lot of bad votes.

I also would like to point out that I have not yet committed to accepting the results of the vote if it should happen not to go the way I want.

That's a result of all the fraudulent (e-) mail-in ballots. Have you noticed how many voters in this forum are not even Americans?!? I believe some of them are not even alive, but have someone else voting under their username.

I see INGSOC is trying to infiltrate the forum and identify those of guilty of thought crime. This is doubleplusungood. Seriously though, I am burned out on politics. It has infiltrated almost every aspect of life. Please do not let it rear its ugly head here.

You're right, it's misplaced. Sorry.

[Kerensky]

Hard to pick just 2, but I'll go with the 2 Italian scenarios 2C and 5E.

IMO Axis Operations should be about the Axis (minus Japan, which really needs its own DLC line for obvious reasons), not just Germany. Some scenarios focusing on Italy without Germany, perhaps as a small separate track in an AO DLC, would feel fresh and there's more than enough material for a couple of Italian scenarios. Not much of a chance they'll actually make it into AO1940, but who knows, if enough people show their interest than maybe sometime in the future a single Italian DLC covering the 1935-1943 period (starting with Ethiopia) could be done.

My choices:

4D Narvik includes Battle of the German mountaineers and paratroopers with the Norwegians, includes Battle of the German Destroyers with British Reinforcements and the fight with british and french troops about the port of Narvik. That makes for a very diversified battle

5D Battle of Britain was an air force only battle and a very epic battle for that. First phase clearing the British Navy from the Channel, second phase destroying airports and Radar stations in southern England and third phase night attacks on British Industry and London (even if that's a little morally controversial it's still historical true). Besides the whole time Germans fighting for Air superiority and the British against annihilation

5C Finnish Winter War and the finnish ski troops should have an appearance in AO 40!

All counted up to this point, thanks guys!

Current leader is 5A Battle of Hannut. It's a tank battle, I guess that's as appropriate for Panzer Corps 2.
2nd place is 5D Aircraft only Battle. We've never, ever had one of these so far... Good luck!
3rd place is 5E Italians in the Balkans 1940. A lot of votes poured in for this one all of a sudden, pushing it past the middle of the pack.

[Retributarr]

Hard to pick just 2, but I'll go with the 2 Italian scenarios 2C and 5E.

if enough people show their interest than maybe sometime in the future a single Italian DLC covering the 1935-1943 period (starting with Ethiopia) could be done.

My choices:

5D Battle of Britain was an air force only battle and a very epic battle for that.
[Ret: This Air-Force Only thing should be followed up... contingent on a successful defeat of the Royal-Air-Force... with an Invasion of Southern England!... not... just a 'Stand-Alone-Air-Battle'... by itself!.]
5C Finnish Winter War and the finnish ski troops should have an appearance in AO 40!
[Ret: The way I see it is... is that the 'Finns' held up or delayed the Russian Time-Table for making better border defence preparations against a possible German Invasion... even though Stalin believed that it would not really ever happen at all. Not only that.. but if the 'Finns' had the where-with-all to accomplish more with of course... an abundant outpouring of generous Western Allied Assistance... maybe they could even have gone as far so as to be able to take out the Port-of-Murmansk???. Anyway!... at some point in the future... I vote for an-intensive Winter-War-DLC-Campaign.]

All counted up to this point, thanks guys!

Current leader is 5A Battle of Hannut. It's a tank battle, I guess that's as appropriate for Panzer Corps 2.
2nd place is 5D Aircraft only Battle. We've never, ever had one of these so far... Good luck!
3rd place is 5E Italians in the Balkans 1940. A lot of votes poured in for this one all of a sudden, pushing it past the middle of the pack.

AS-Well... sometime in the "Future"... I would like to see a 'Full-Blown' Italian Campaign... starting with the 'Alpine-Line'... proceeded or introduced by a Ranting Belligerent Speech by 'Mussolini'... telling his adoring cheering Italian worshipers... by what actions and precisely how he is going to deliver ignominious defeat upon the 'French and British'.

[Buffalohump]

That's a result of all the fraudulent (e-) mail-in ballots. Have you noticed how many voters in this forum are not even Americans?!? I believe some of them are not even alive, but have someone else voting under their username.

I see INGSOC is trying to infiltrate the forum and identify those of guilty of thought crime. This is doubleplusungood. Seriously though, I am burned out on politics. It has infiltrated almost every aspect of life. Please do not let it rear its ugly head here.

You're right, it's misplaced. Sorry.

I do not believe offense was intended so an apology is not required. I do appreciate the gesture, and if I have ever offended any one, that was not my intent please accept my apology. I have enjoyed this forum for several years because of its civil and spirited debate.

Regards,

[Schneides42]

Retributarr

"KURSK!!!"... What kind of Tank-Battle???:

It was referred to as 'The Largest Tank Battle' based mostly on the number of Tanks that were involved... not as to what conditions they were involved in. This 'Brody' encounter that is mentioned... had actually more Tanks involved.

According to my incomplete understanding... I will try to explain what I think to be the actual case!.

The 'Western Allies'... using the deciphered or now broken-codes of the secret German 'Cypher-Equipment'-code-named..."ULTRA or ENIGMA"... had found out that the Germans were planning a large scale attack at KURSK... to destroy the Russian Army and Tank Forces. They managed to acquire the details of the 'Plan of Attack'.

So... they relayed this information to 'KOMRAD-STALIN'... and included what they had as to what the exact dispositions and plans were that the Germans had and were going to employ. The 'Russians' now set up "Tank-Traps- or Killing Boxes" [Yes!... including lots of Anti-Tank-Guns!]... in depth!,., for the German Tanks... in order to kill their Tanks, to deal them a severe blow... or to annihilate them!. The Russians were not at-all surprised or caught off-guard, they knew almost 'Exactly' when the 'Germans' were going to begin to strike or to carry out their assault. Hence!... now the German Armored Forces were 'Severly-Decimated'... so much so as to never to carry on any meaningful offensives again!.

Just some clarification of the Allies Ultra program breaking the German Enigma coding machines. They would never have passed on specific information to the Russians such as battle plans as they kept the secret of Ultra to only the most trusted of Allies (US-UK-Canada-Australia). Indeed they were very reluctant to use any intelligence derived solely from Ultra. They did this not only to reduce the risk of the Germans discovering that their codes were broken but also so the US and UK could sell the 'unbreakable' Enigma machines to other countries after the war. And they kept the secret until the 1970s!

[Retributarr]

Just some clarification of the Allies Ultra program breaking the German Enigma coding machines. They would never have passed on specific information to the Russians such as battle plans as they kept the secret of Ultra to only the most trusted of Allies (US-UK-Canada-Australia).

You just may be correct. However, i'm still not entirely convinced!... I have come across the information that I relayed in my posting at least once for sure, maybe even twice... I can't cleary remember. The allies of course... wouldn't let STALIN know how they really came across acquiring this important intelligence by indicating that it was actually by means of "ULTRA".

What they would do instead is... devise an iron-clad 'Cover-Story'... to perfectly camouflage the actual method used... to instead... substitute their secret-source-method with some other alternative-logical-believable argument for how this information was obtained.

I am still very-sure that the 'Russians' got this information from the 'Allies'... one way or another. A documentary that I once watched... said something to the effect that the 'Russians'... knew... right to the last minute... when the attack would begin.

[Schneides42]

You may be right, I don't have any specific knowledge about Kursk. When they did use Ultra info they did indeed try to find other plausible ways to have found out the information (ie sending a patrol plane to 'discover' a wolf pack forming up to attack a convoy).

They did pass on Rommel's battle plan to Montgomery before El Alamein and just hoped that the defeat would be put down to the vagaries of war.

[kondi754]

Re: Kursk

I have to confirm that the Russians knew German plan very well, possibly also from their western allies (I'm sure of it, in fact) but they received a lot of information from their spies too.
The Soviets even launched an artillery counter-attack on German units near Kursk just before the start of the German attack, as well as Soviet planes attacked German airfields in early July 1943 with large forces involvement.
Information from Bletchley Park was passed not only to the closest allies but also to the USSR, China and even the communist Tito partisans in Yugoslavia
It is obvious that the British only disclosed to these countries as much as they needed to know, and only as much as not to reveal the source

[Stormchaser]

I think I'm going to go with 1D, 4E, and 5E.

A Spitfire to support my Bf109s and 110s till we get Fw190s would be great.

Nemesis are a great way to provide boosts to the enemy, especially if you are like me and don't always notice the little mark that denotes an enemy unit has a Hero.

And I admit, I personally enjoy getting involved in fights with the smaller nations/conflicts, so taking a trip to the Balkans would be fun.
Plus, new nations means new Units for the game, which can lead to fun times.

[Retributarr]

Here is another issue with the the WWII history: the generals that got power promoted their operations and positioned them as key. The extreme was Brezhnev promoting the Novorossiysk landing operation (aka Malaya Zemlya) as the key operation of the Great Patriotic war (coz he was involved in its planning).

"Vorski!"... your posting has given me a new-idea or concept to consider utilizing in this Game.

Just an Idea!: What about 'Randomly' having an arbitrarily selected 'General' assigned to your 'Combat-Group'... due to the mysterious workings of 'Head-Quarters'.

Now!... depending on who you get???... the 'Policy or Plan of Combat-Operations' that will determine which and what will be the required 'Targets'... and the requirements for the successful completion of the 'Mission'... will then be dictated by the 'Determination or 'Whims' of your General who is now in charge!.

Maybe... someone with a more 'Inventive-Imagination'... can flesh this proposal into something that could in-fact be considered... either for only special situations or for what-ever else postulations or circumstance that seems appropriate!.

[Gfot]

My votes are for 4B, 4C and 5A. Vanilla stuff compared to some other options, but can't go wrong with an urban scenario, a breakthrough and a major tank battle.

[Kerensky]

My votes are for 4B, 4C and 5A. Vanilla stuff compared to some other options, but can't go wrong with an urban scenario, a breakthrough and a major tank battle.

I think I'm going to go with 1D, 4E, and 5E.

A Spitfire to support my Bf109s and 110s till we get Fw190s would be great.

Nemesis are a great way to provide boosts to the enemy, especially if you are like me and don't always notice the little mark that denotes an enemy unit has a Hero.

And I admit, I personally enjoy getting involved in fights with the smaller nations/conflicts, so taking a trip to the Balkans would be fun.
Plus, new nations means new Units for the game, which can lead to fun times.

Counted, and counted, and added some numbers from Steam too.

You apparently arent the only one to throw your lot in with the 1940 Italians in the Balkans, that one completely snuck up on me, and the last series of bets rocketed it up to 2nd place on the chart.

[Vorskl]

Re: Kursk

I have to confirm that the Russians knew German plan very well, possibly also from their western allies (I'm sure of it, in fact) but they received a lot of information from their spies too.
The Soviets even launched an artillery counter-attack on German units near Kursk just before the start of the German attack, as well as Soviet planes attacked German airfields in early July 1943 with large forces involvement.
Information from Bletchley Park was passed not only to the closest allies but also to the USSR, China and even the communist Tito partisans in Yugoslavia
It is obvious that the British only disclosed to these countries as much as they needed to know, and only as much as not to reveal the source

The value of this intelligence is grossly overestimated: while Soviet prepared to meet Germans at north, the main German strike occured at south. Moreover, even at north Rokossovskiy thought Model will strike along the railroad, so he missed the strike direction as well. As for the arty 'pre-strike', its impact is grossly overestimated. If you can, try to find books of Alexei Isaev (I saw there are some printed in English - https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Zitadelle ... 1912390086 ) He's a modern Russian historian, works for the Russian Ministry of Defense (so be careful with some of his conclusions) but in his books he publishes a lot of first-hand materials from Soviet archives which were not revealed previously.

[Patrick Ward]

A bit late to the table but

5D - being the Battle of Britain. I'd want the switch ( if you chose to make it ) from airfield bombing to city bombing to be a hugely significant decision point. It'd be interesting to see if you could lessen the effect of hindsight and make the switch seem like the optimal move. I'd rather that than the decision being forced on me.

5C - Finnish 1940. Presumably that would be the full Winter War?

5E - Balkans - we've missed them so far so it'd be good to explore.

P