Defensive Spearmen, what are they good for???

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:00 pm

hammy wrote:
pyrrhus wrote:(
That said I think that giving them a tie break POA when charging like mounted light spear would not be a bad thing
.) yet another reason not to take LS heavy cav when they cost the same as lancers ,yes they can evade great .They already suck at impact and are ok at melee .Wait they must be the deffensive spear of the cavalry world . some how the points seem off for these guys with no way to disrupt the enemy (on their own ) to warrent a charge . sorry my own rant
How about we try a game, both armies have say 6 BGs of light horse bow, a few BGs of LF and 5 BGs of superior armoured cavalry. My cavalry are light spear, yours are lancers.

My money is on the light spear every day of the week.

I won't be charging you frontally mind

I'd bet on a Pyrrhic victory Hammy

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:23 pm

Hey i love the jls cav but for the same points why cant I get a shooting attack like the *bow/lance armed cav with a 2 inch range with supporting LH bw your shots could have a chance at a disrupt and then the charge in . Doesnt seem to overpowering for a unit to me . AND I welcome the day when my lancers shall ride down your helpless fleeing LS boyz

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:34 pm

pyrrhus wrote:Hey i love the jls cav but for the same points why cant I get a shooting attack like the *bow/lance armed cav with a 2 inch range with supporting LH bw your shots could have a chance at a disrupt and then the charge in . Doesnt seem to overpowering for a unit to me . AND I welcome the day when my lancers shall ride down your helpless fleeing LS boyz

If you expect my light spear cavalry to stand in front of your lancers you have another thing comming

Most of the time I would be looking for impacts at ++ against you

Lycanthropic · Post by **Lycanthropic** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:41 am

lawrenceg wrote:
Lycanthropic wrote:I run a VERY fun Ordonnance Burgundian army with mixed ordonnance BGs of Def Sp front rank & Longbow back rank.
These guys are more vulnerable than pure bow BGs to defensive spear charging .

I'll take your 6 dice on 4s and raise you 9 dice on 5s. The following melee is going to be a struggle though.

madmike111 · Post by **madmike111** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:31 am

I find the poor protected undrilled defensive spear in arab armies good value when fighting crusader armies.

They sit there as a target for the knights, however on impact the spear are +1 on the knights, add in a general so no rolling of 6s its usually a fun result. With average to slightly bad rolling they should win and most likely kill a knight base. Assuming the spear don't loss the impact, which they shouldn't they fight at evens during the melee. If the knights don't disrupt the spear then the knights have to break off and repeat the whole thing during their next turn (charging in again).

A battle group made up of 4pt spear beating up on 26 pt knights. Whats not to love about protected spear? While the Crusader player is complaining about losing a knight you are rolling up his other flank.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:45 pm

Lycanthropic wrote:
lawrenceg wrote:
Lycanthropic wrote:I run a VERY fun Ordonnance Burgundian army with mixed ordonnance BGs of Def Sp front rank & Longbow back rank.
These guys are more vulnerable than pure bow BGs to defensive spear charging .
I'll take your 6 dice on 4s and raise you 9 dice on 5s. The following melee is going to be a struggle though.

Defensive spear charging pure bow is:

6 dice on 4s versus 6 dice on 4s and 3 dice on 5s.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:57 pm

Assuming Protected there I take it?

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:10 pm

lawrenceg wrote:
Lycanthropic wrote:
lawrenceg wrote: These guys are more vulnerable than pure bow BGs to defensive spear charging .
I'll take your 6 dice on 4s and raise you 9 dice on 5s. The following melee is going to be a struggle though.
Defensive spear charging pure bow is:
6 dice on 4s versus 6 dice on 4s and 3 dice on 5s.

Stone me - something pure bow are actually pretty good against !! I knew someone would find something eventually ....

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:02 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Assuming Protected there I take it?

No, it's impact.

In melee it all depends if the bow have protection and/or a sword and if the spearmen are steady or not after all the shooting on the way in and the impact, and their armour.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:05 pm

But since the rear ranks are shooting overhead then against protected spearmen they need a five and against armoured spearmen they need a six.

Being Armoured makes a huge difference against bowmen, in shooting, impact and melee.

pyrrhus · Post by **pyrrhus** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:18 pm

you expect my light spear cavalry to stand in front of your lancers you have another thing comming Most of the time I would be looking for impacts at ++ against you

I expect nothing ! I know you my try and manuver you may try and choose your little terrain that you my hink takes away my lance poa but I am sorry MR BOND you must still die . twist and turn whine and threaten add your +and -'s All to no avail you have no hope and no escape lay down now beacuse your already dead

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:28 pm

lawrenceg wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:Assuming Protected there I take it?
No, it's impact.

Where the support shooters use Shooting PoAs so armour can matter ...

Also, trivia fans, where support shooting longbowmen can end up on better PoAs than the longbowmen in the front rank

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:31 pm

Quite easy really - unprotected Lancers charging in two ranks deep!!!

Front rank double minus on a 5+, rear rank plus on a 3+. Although quite what state the Lancers will be when they get there after the firing at 2+ is another question...

One of the guys at out club tried out a Bedouin Horde with about 15 BG's of Unprotected, Average, Lancers.

Didn't use them more than a couple of times

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:40 pm

dave_r wrote:Quite easy really - unprotected Lancers charging in two ranks deep!!!

It wasn't a quiz question Dave, it was too easy for that - although I would note that both players of Ottoman armies I faced at the IWF weren't (briefly) aware that longbows shooting at Armoured cavalry who are in 2 ranks are on a + PoA

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:58 pm

Do supporting bow get a roll against heavily armoured foot at impact ? Their initial 6 would become a 7 under the normal course of events.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:29 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Do supporting bow get a roll against heavily armoured foot at impact ? Their initial 6 would become a 7 under the normal course of events.

Yes, you can never be at worse than a double minus POA.

HannibalBarca · Post by **HannibalBarca** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:39 am

lawrenceg wrote:
Lycanthropic wrote:I run a VERY fun Ordonnance Burgundian army with mixed ordonnance BGs of Def Sp front rank & Longbow back rank.
These guys are more vulnerable than pure bow BGs to defensive spear charging .

Well the bowmen are dearer...

Anyway, it does seem a little bit of an oddity, but also remember that it's the outcome of the fight that's important, not the hits scored. And a pure bow BG in that situation would suffer a -1 penalty to the cohesion roll if it lost to the (heavy foot) defensive spearmen who charged them. Anyone mathematically inclined like to hazard whether or not the mixed group is any more likely to become disrupted than the pure bow?

(Not that the singular case of receiving a charge from defensive spear would render the formation useless anyhow!)