Why Encicrlement is confusing and doesn't work well IMO

[Dorky8]

Please stop with the absurd statements that I don't know how to play war games that's why I see this as ridiculous.

Its just a common feature of war games that units need to be of a certain strength to exert of zone of control.

One of the Grandfathers of War Games "Strategic Command 3 : War in Europe" on zones of control

"Damaged Units: units below strength 5 do not exert any Zone of Control."

[Horseman]

Please stop with the absurd statements that I don't know how to play war games that's why I see this as ridiculous.

Its just a common feature of war games that units need to be of a certain strength to exert of zone of control.

One of the Grandfathers of War Games "Strategic Command 3 : War in Europe" on zones of control

"Damaged Units: units below strength 5 do not exert any Zone of Control."

Stop with the absurd statement that its "common in wargames"

No its not - Some do and some don't. PG (and lets not pretend thats not one of the grandfather eh?) made no distinction. A unit had a ZOC no matter its strength. I'm actually hard pressed to remember any wargames I've played where the strength of the unit mattered in determining ZOC. And I'm including pre computer wargaming, the real grandfathers! In short any armed enemy presence no matter how weak is an armed enemy presence.

The truth is - you're struggling to play this one and instead of working within the game rules to get better you'd rather just blame/change the rules.

There is literally nothing wrong with a one step unit blocking supply - your inability to deal with it does not change that.

[Dorky8]

The truth is - you're struggling to play this one and instead of working within the game rules to get better you'd rather just blame/change the rules.

There is literally nothing wrong with a one step unit blocking supply - your inability to deal with it does not change that.

Classic response of a person without a intelligent response. Say the person doesn't know how to play the game and attack him personally.

bye

[comradep]

Most of the wargames I've played allow tracing supplies through/into hexes with friendly units, PC2 is quite strict in that regard.

Being allowed to trace a supply line through friendly units would remove most of the strange encirclement results we're seeing.

There are games that feature states where a unit's ability to project a ZOC is removed, like the "weak" state in Unity of Command, or Disrupted/Broken/units that have retreated during the turn in other wargames.

[nexusno2000]

Again, the game already has a solution:

Perimeter Control. It's a 1 point trait that's super useful.

So if this stuff matters, take it.

[Gwaylare]

First I like the encirclement concept in the game, its possibly a great improvement, I just feel the ZOC rules for encirclement (blocking supply when there is a unit) are too rigid. The game creates too many encirclements, even in classical formations, and the ZOC rules aren't logical.

Encircled troops can't retreat, lose supply and have limited effectiveness the next turn even if they become "un encircled". That's a big deal.

Yes there are a lot of encirclements, but most of them are harmless and do just have a minimal effect.

Here an example of an encirclement of a Tiger

Encirclement.jpg (269.13 KiB) Viewed 2472 times

Encircled troops can't retreat, lose supply and have limited effectiveness the next turn even if they become "un encircled". That's a big deal.

No encircled troops do retreat as nomal.

Encircle troops do not loose supply. They do not resupply and that is not really an issue for one turn.

They do not reduce suppression but get 2 suppression top. This is the most anoying restriction but for a healthy unit that is not a problem.


Just give us an in game example of an encirclement you feel is a problem, may be from a multiplayer game. I still do not see your point here.

Best regards
Gwaylare

[Horseman]

Most of the wargames I've played allow tracing supplies through/into hexes with friendly units, PC2 is quite strict in that regard.

Being allowed to trace a supply line through friendly units would remove most of the strange encirclement results we're seeing.

There are games that feature states where a unit's ability to project a ZOC is removed, like the "weak" state in Unity of Command, or Disrupted/Broken/units that have retreated during the turn in other wargames.

Tracing supply through a hex with a friendly unit I can go either way on. Examples of both through the ages.

I can use the system in place and don't feel it is massively limiting (even though I keep letting forward units get cut off because i make mistakes )

And as mentioned- we have tools available to counter that effect if we find it too debilitating!

[Dorky8]

Gwaylare : Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot.

I now have two issues.

1) In the screenshot you show the Tiger is justified in being encircled. My issue is if there were units in the two Friendly hexes to the west the Tiger would still be encircled and I see that as a problem. I should have said units surrender easier not they don't retreat. I understand encirclements are often quickly remedied, but even for a turn they have significant consequences, mainly the next turns effectiveness (manual excerpt below). I'm just saying the ZOC shouldn't block supply (& create encirclement) if there is a friendly unit there.

2) My new concern is that in your example (it is my understanding) is if the two infantry units were one (1) strength and the Tiger was 15 strength it would still be encircled. There should be some limitation on smaller units (or differential) encircling.

From Manual

"Encirclements are marked on the map by a border enclosing all affected hexes, coloured to indicate what player’s units have been encircled. Units that have been encircled do not receive supplies of fuel and ammo at the start of the turn, and cannot receive replacements or upgrades of any type for as long as the encirclement remains. Each turn they remain encircled, they will suffer growing initiative and accuracy penalties, and accumulate more suppression every turn. Suppression does not reset at the beginning of a turn if the encirclement remains, even if caused by combat and not as a result of the encirclement itself, so breaking units out of encirclements should be a high priority if you do not wish to see your forces surrendering"

[Horseman]

Gwaylare : Unfortunately I don't have a screenshot.

I now have two issues.

1) In the screenshot you show the Tiger is justified in being encircled. My issue is if there were units in the two Friendly hexes to the west the Tiger would still be encircled and I see that as a problem. I should have said units surrender easier not they don't retreat. I understand encirclements are often quickly remedied, but even for a turn they have significant consequences, mainly the next turns effectiveness (manual excerpt below). I'm just saying the ZOC shouldn't block supply (& create encirclement) if there is a friendly unit there.

2) My new concern is that in your example (it is my understanding) is if the two infantry units were one (1) strength and the Tiger was 15 strength it would still be encircled. There should be some limitation on smaller units (or differential) encircling.

From Manual

"Encirclements are marked on the map by a border enclosing all affected hexes, coloured to indicate what player’s units have been encircled. Units that have been encircled do not receive supplies of fuel and ammo at the start of the turn, and cannot receive replacements or upgrades of any type for as long as the encirclement remains. Each turn they remain encircled, they will suffer growing initiative and accuracy penalties, and accumulate more suppression every turn. Suppression does not reset at the beginning of a turn if the encirclement remains, even if caused by combat and not as a result of the encirclement itself, so breaking units out of encirclements should be a high priority if you do not wish to see your forces surrendering"

As to your 1st issue - I can go either way with that. I can see supply coming "through" units but I can equally see it working the way it does now. One of the questions would be what is the ground/unit scale? The PC series (just like PG) is very in the air on this. 1 unit =1 division then totally supply should be traceable through friendly units. If its 1 unit= 1 platoon then no way.

The 2nd issue is still a non issue. If those infantry were 1 strength the Tiger would have 0 problems breaking out so long as it has ammo left.

[comradep]

Having units that can only trace supply through hexes containing both an enemy ZOC and friendly unit receive limited supplies might be an option.

One issue with the supply system in combination with the encirclement system is that the system is very situational in ways that can't always be predicted.

In PC, you generally chose when to resupply.
In PC2, it's all automatic until it isn't. PC2 uses (under normal circumstances) an everything or nothing system where a unit is either fully in supply, or it isn't.
Similarly, a unit either receives encirclement penalties or it doesn't. There's no partial encirclement like in a situation where a unit is "encircled" due to EZOCs on the friendly units behind it.

Encirclement also reduces initiative and accuracy, which makes spearheads being "encircled" by the AI hugging the spearhead unit a very real annoyance, on Generalissimus in particular. Suppression is also not reduced, so aside from whatever the unit ended the last friendly phase with, it will have at least 2 more and any suppression inflicted by the enemy during his phase of the turn.

[Horseman]

Having units that can only trace supply through hexes containing both an enemy ZOC and friendly unit receive limited supplies might be an option.

One issue with the supply system in combination with the encirclement system is that the system is very situational in ways that can't always be predicted.

In PC, you generally chose when to resupply.
In PC2, it's all automatic until it isn't. PC2 uses (under normal circumstances) an everything or nothing system where a unit is either fully in supply, or it isn't.
Similarly, a unit either receives encirclement penalties or it doesn't. There's no partial encirclement like in a situation where a unit is "encircled" due to EZOCs on the friendly units behind it.

Encirclement also reduces initiative and accuracy, which makes spearheads being "encircled" by the AI hugging the spearhead unit a very real annoyance, on Generalissimus in particular. Suppression is also not reduced, so aside from whatever the unit ended the last friendly phase with, it will have at least 2 more and any suppression inflicted by the enemy during his phase of the turn.

An interesting idea, though I fear things could get to complicated and i prefere it to remain somewhat simple

I do disagree that you cant predict when units will be encircled. As it stands it's fairly strait forward to determine when a unit will it won't be encircled.

[Dorky8]

Having units that can only trace supply through hexes containing both an enemy ZOC and friendly unit receive limited supplies might be an option.

One issue with the supply system in combination with the encirclement system is that the system is very situational in ways that can't always be predicted.

In PC, you generally chose when to resupply.
In PC2, it's all automatic until it isn't. PC2 uses (under normal circumstances) an everything or nothing system where a unit is either fully in supply, or it isn't.
Similarly, a unit either receives encirclement penalties or it doesn't. There's no partial encirclement like in a situation where a unit is "encircled" due to EZOCs on the friendly units behind it.

Encirclement also reduces initiative and accuracy, which makes spearheads being "encircled" by the AI hugging the spearhead unit a very real annoyance, on Generalissimus in particular. Suppression is also not reduced, so aside from whatever the unit ended the last friendly phase with, it will have at least 2 more and any suppression inflicted by the enemy during his phase of the turn.

Thank you comradep, you have stated my issue better than I have. When playing MP I just found the game to have far to many encirclements, the map was full of them. Many of them didn't make sense to me. I think there just aren't enough units on the map to have strict ZOC rules and its producing to many encirclements. The objective of starting this thread was for the developers to consider looser ZOC rules to alleviate this situation. Additionally, the fact that any size unit can exert a ZOC over much larger units is also an issue.


Seems many others share our concern or are confused. To be fair there are also people supporting the current rules.

I find Encirclement to be far to easy because the ZOC blocks supply even if there is an Allied unit there...

I agree, I've been playing board and computer wargames for 37 years and in the vast majority of them a friendly unit will negate an enemy ZOC for supply tracing purposes.
At least the upside is that we'll be able to cut the enemy's supply with ZOC's just like he's doing to us..

PS- For the record an enemy zoc into a supply source apparently has NO effect on supply (unless I've wrongly mis-interpreted this screenshot of a random battle I played recently). Note most of my Germans are able to trace supply to the port at bottom left even though an American Greyhound has got a ZOC on the port.
(The 3 Germans at the top are of course out of supply because the major river blocks their supply path to the port)

Implementing a rule that ZOC gets blocked by a physical enemy unit will still allow you to explain encirclement in an easy way and doesn't have to be complicated.

Units exert a zone of control on all adjacent hexes, except on hexes where an enemy unit is present.
A unit is encircled if it cannot trace back supply to a supply point. Units can trace supply through any hex the enemy doesn't have a zone of control in or hexes with the no-supply trait.

Clean and simple. The only change is in italics.

[nexusno2000]

The flip side is that you can have situations where supply is traced through a swamp across a river to the side of the map leading to Moscow... And that's a German unit.

Also makes little sense.

[Horseman]

The flip side is that you can have situations where supply is traced through a swamp across a river to the side of the map leading to Moscow... And that's a German unit.

Also makes little sense.

Haha that's true. I do wish that map edges could have been designated as one side or the other for supply or that they didn't count at all and there were just extra supply hers designated on the map edges to show where an armies supply train was coming from.

On the flip side it's still better (IMO) than what supply rules we had in PC1.

[Dorky8]

The flip side is that you can have situations where supply is traced through a swamp across a river to the side of the map leading to Moscow... And that's a German unit.

Also makes little sense.

I don't understand. I thought supply couldn't go over rivers. Is there a bridging unit on the river?

[Horseman]

The flip side is that you can have situations where supply is traced through a swamp across a river to the side of the map leading to Moscow... And that's a German unit.

Also makes little sense.

I don't understand. I thought supply couldn't go over rivers. Is there a bridging unit on the river?

Supply can go over minor rivers but not major rivers.

Basically if wheeled transports can't cross the terrain nor can supply.

[nexusno2000]

The flip side is that you can have situations where supply is traced through a swamp across a river to the side of the map leading to Moscow... And that's a German unit.

Also makes little sense.

I don't understand. I thought supply couldn't go over rivers. Is there a bridging unit on the river?

Minor river, sorry.

Wheeled can barely enter swamp and cross river, but it's still enough for full supply and replenish. Feels very, very wrong.

[Dorky8]

In multiplayer getting supply from all 4 sides doesn't work either. Units way behind enemy lines and obviously out of supply still get supply. Recons can do mucho damage in that situation.

[Horseman]

The flip side is that you can have situations where supply is traced through a swamp across a river to the side of the map leading to Moscow... And that's a German unit.

Also makes little sense.

I don't understand. I thought supply couldn't go over rivers. Is there a bridging unit on the river?

Minor river, sorry.

Wheeled can barely enter swamp and cross river, but it's still enough for full supply and replenish. Feels very, very wrong.

Can agree to that. But then wheeled transport being able to enter marsh hexes at all makes me twitch!

You can assume that minor rivers would at least have areas that are reasonably forded (is that even a word?!)

[Horseman]

In multiplayer getting supply from all 4 sides doesn't work either. Units way behind enemy lines and obviously out of supply still get supply. Recons can do mucho damage in that situation.

To be fair it doesn't really work in SP either.....

If I was designing MP maps I'd surround them with impassable terrain and make supply hexes way more important!