Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Discuss John Butterfield’s Battle of the Bulge: Crisis in Command Vol. 1
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Weids
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Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Post by Weids »

The Axis assuming a defensive position and not touching the Meuse can be "easily" beaten, for the following points.

First, the notion of the Turtle strategy is not clearly defined. What does the turtle means? Does it means that the Axis does not want to touch the Meuse? Or does it implies that the Axis not only avoid the Meuse but also form a defensive line? If the defensive line is broken by the Axis player himself or herself, then would it not be a turtle strategy anymore?

On the contrary, that both players trade resources (time, units, locations) with each other is true and genuine. The Axis dismisses the defensive line to cut the Allied supply, for instance. While making a cunning trade can benefit one side and hurt the other side, be flexible! Thus, we conclude that no defensive lines are permanent.

The Axis without the OKW reserve cannot properly defend, at least not perfectly, all important locations. However, it is true that the Allied's threat is merely limited to one or two locations. Very limited threats are not enough, and the Allied have to trade with the Axis to gain more benefit in order to be reasonably likely to win.

Some examples to make this more concrete: (refer to the screen shot below)

What if the armored stack in Werbomont is in Herve? It will be able to attack SPA or Eupen tomorrow. If it will attack Eupen, then what would likely be the result? The calculation follows:
[cal]
11 pips with 50%(0.5) hit chance, and 7 pips with 60%(0.6) hit chance.
We expect each pip with 50%(0.5) hit chance to score 0.5(1/2) pips, and each pip with 60%(0.6) hit chance to score 0.6(3/5) pips.
...
11*0.5+7*0.6=9.7
[/cal]
We expect the armored stack to score 9.7 pips.
The forest and the small town absorb 3 pips. We expect to inflict 6.7 pips on the Axis infantry divisions currently in Eupen. Since the Axis infantries have 7 pips in total, I estimate that the chance of elimination is more than 35%. (proof needed, but if you trust me) Note, that this type of calculation is done in games frequently, because I am an expert.

What if the Allied has created an armored stack in Liege yesterday? (give up other locations and any assault plans, and move to Liege) Then, it can be deployed with a single activation today, it can be deployed today to a large area, it can produce threats in all locations even further than that area, but the Axis cannot perfectly defend all those locations. If the stack was the last to be deployed today and would be the first to attack tomorrow, then one weakness of the many weaknesses would certainly be exploited by the Allied. If it would break through Eupen, then the defensive line would become chaotic, which is fun for most allied people. :)

In conclusion, beating the defensive strategy is difficult, the Allied is better to prevent it from happening by, in the days that precedes, holding key positions which are not adjacent to the Meuse while defending the Meuse river. As you can see, to deal with the defensive strategy, one needs have considerations throughout the entire game!

Edit: Here is an illustration of a trade. (second picture)

I am the Allied, and the Axis is an expert, I believe. Its his or her turn now. My first feeling is moving 1ss to Eupen (though, i am hoping, from my perspective, it be Veriers) later in the day, but not right away. Cunning, hey? Every trade has a "pitfall" in it.

Edit: (To the Axis) when advancing, end your panzers today in the spaces that is overall the closest to all allied frontal positions of tomorrow. By being closer, I mean requiring fewer days to go to.

Maybe at this point you have already found this post to be clueless. This is True. In fact, all that have been said can be summaried into few sentences, and can serve no purpose but to illustrate these: the game is imbalanced; and It is through surprising your opponents, driving the game into a situation of which your opponent have no adaquate experience, and thinking more thoroughly to make clearer judgement than your competitor, then act with respect to your judgement that you can win the games. ( Edit: All strategies listed here have very few practical uses of balancing the axis advantage)
Last edited by wargodachilles on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:13 am, edited 17 times in total.
Yojimbo252
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Re: Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Post by Yojimbo252 »

Weid wrote:The Axis assuming a defensive position and not touching the Meuse can be "easily" beaten...
On that point I strongly disagree. The Axis defensive strategy is in my opinion the most powerful Axis strategy and the Axis player must either be very unlucky or totally outplayed in order to loose.

Note that no one is suggesting it's completely unbeatable, it's just not balanced, leads to a very unenjoyable game, and not in the historical spirit of what the Ardennes Offensive was about.
Weid wrote:The Axis without the OKW reserve cannot properly defend, at least not perfectly, all important locations.
I would suggest that forgoing the potential* of gaining some/all of the OKW reserves to effectively remove British participation from the game is most certainly an advantageous trade for the Axis.

* I say potential because there's no guarantees the Axis will hold a continuous line of supply to fully draw upon the OKW reserves but once the Meuse is touched, the triggering of the British is guaranteed.
Weid wrote:In conclusion, beating the defensive strategy is difficult, the Allied is better to prevent it from happening by, in the days that precedes, holding key positions which are not adjacent to the Meuse while defending the Meuse river.
Preventing the Axis defensive strategy is easier said than done.

In any case if you feel that there isn't a problem and the game is balanced, send me a game invite (Yojimbo252). I'll play Axis and you can show me how you deal with the defensive strategy as I'm open to new ideas.
Last edited by kalaris on Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
thedudeabidez
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Re: Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Post by thedudeabidez »

I am very strongly of the opinion that an Axis defensive strategy (the Turtle) which doesn't touch the Meuse, does not trigger the British and preserves strength. most of it behind river lines or in good terrain, cannot be beaten by the Allies unless they have an outstanding degree of luck. Or bad play by the Axis. I just finished a game with a very good opponent who has beaten me many times as the Axis; I played as the Axis, had only 4 moves total on the 16th, 17th was also short, made no progress towards the Meuse or even Marche, didn't hold more than 3 VPs worth of towns at any point in time,held only St. Vith at the end, took more casualties than I inflicted on the Allies, made a couple of errors, and lost two infantry divisions who were cut off at the end of the 29th as well. Basically, I made no progress and my opponent kicked my butt for most of the game. Result? Axis victory, 29 points, on the 28th. It sure didn't feel like a victory, I can tell you that.
thedudeabidez
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Re: Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Post by thedudeabidez »

Basically, with skilled players, I only play 2-game matches now, where we switch sides. The pressure of having to win faster as the Axis takes away the attraction of the Turtle defense. (Sure, you can win with that one, but it will be slow and a blitz by your opponent when he plays the Axis will beat you on points.) This is the only way I've found to balance the game at present and force the Axis player to take some risks and act offensively. Even so, playing these two-game matches, against the best players, it's nearly always a question of who will win faster as the Axis, don't really see very many Allied wins I'm afraid.
Weids
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Re: Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Post by Weids »

thedudeabidez wrote:... I played as the Axis, had only 4 moves total on the 16th, 17th was also short, made no progress towards the Meuse or even Marche, didn't hold more than 3 VPs worth of towns at any point in time,held only St. Vith at the end, took more casualties than I inflicted on the Allies, made a couple of errors, and lost two infantry divisions who were cut off at the end of the 29th as well. Basically, I made no progress and my opponent kicked my butt for most of the game. Result? Axis victory, 29 points, on the 28th. It sure didn't feel like a victory, I can tell you that.
"It sure didn't feel like a victory, I can tell you that."

I am sure that you are aiming too high. You must have done a good job and you should deserve it!
madafu87
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Re: Beating an Axis defensive strategy

Post by madafu87 »

hi guys,

there is a solution to this axis "turtle" problem in our league at

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk ... el-Tourney

out of 18 games played in the first round, there was not a single incidence of the axis turtle win. come over and see why. the rules of the league are post #2.

we are just about to start the second round, and i also want to incorporate all the games that will eventually be a part of the Crisis in Command Line (Drive on Moscow, El Alamein, etc) when they arrive.

please join us.

cheers,

bruce
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