Samurai in 1600

[irondog068]

Waiting for beta info and or the rules I am using Warmaster Ancients for my samurai since they are base the right size and I am not waiting. But for the Warring states here is my thoughts. I am talking around 1575 to 1600. Also keep in mind this is basically a medievil style army with Teppo (musket). Also the Yumi had basically went away from almost everyones use except for Skirmish. And by 1600 some Samurai would be armed with Teppo. Here is my basic army idea.

The army (for ease of list) would be 1/3 Samurai, 1/3 Ashigaru with Yari (long spear sometimes pike length but not used as such), 1/3 Ashigaru with Teppo.

Samurai: Hvy, Armored (one unit could be hvy armor repsendting "Bullet proof" armor) Sup ( one unit elite for Hatamato), Not sure of weapon. They would have impact ablity but were also armed with Yari which they used in combat more that sword. If monks would be the same but armed with hvy cutting weapon (Naganata).
Cavalry would lance armed I would think plus no more than 2 unless you have the Takada clan out there.

Ashigaru: Med (or heavy?), average, protected (one unit could be up armored to armored. At least 1 Diamyo gave his whole army "bullet proof" armor for the Imjin war), Defensive or Offensive spear (unsure here. Heart says defensive but with 1/3 of your army spearmen I thing they may be better than a defensive spear for the later peroid).

Teppo/yumi would have the same and skirmish units would also have the same armor as normal troops and yumi should be limited to 1 or 2 units and skirmish units limited to 1 or 2 units.

What do you think
Irondog

[Huaxtec15mm]

Hi Irondog. I have been working on this list as well. One thing that must be taken into account is that Samurai armies changed very rapidly in the 16th century.

Starting in 1500 only about 33% of the army would have been ashigaru. 20-33% would have been cavalry, about 1/2 of which would have been bow armed. The ashigaru would have almost entirely been spear (short) equipped. The lance (pike) was just coming into use. So for a 1500 period army I might allow 1 ashigaru pike armed unit, and 1 LF ashigaru bow unit, and the rest light spear armed. Foot samurai of this period would be 1/3 bow and 2/3 "swordsmen" or light spear armed.

As time went on, the % of cavalry dropped and the % of ashigaru rose rapidly, as they were the easiest means to field larger armies. After firearms are introduced in 1542 I would field an army like this (1543-1560):

50% ashigaru, 50% samurai. 15-20% of the overall army can be cavalry. 20% of the cavalry should be bow armed. 20% of foot samurai bow armed. Ashigaru breakdown as follows:

5% arquebus (as light foot), 10% bow (as light foot), 10-20% as pike (heavy foot), and the rest as medium foot w/ light spear.

By 1561 we get the "classic sengoku" period armies that we know and love. For the period of 1561-1580 I would field armies as follows:

60-70% ashigaru, 30-40% samurai. 15% of overall army is cavalry. 10-15% of cavalry is bow armed. Foot samurai is 10-15% bow armed, the rest light spear or "swordsmen". Ashigaru breakdown as follows:

10% arquebus (now as medium foot), 10-15% bow (as light foot), 30% as pike (heavy foot), the rest as medium foot light spear.

For late period sengoku armies, 1581-1616 (including armies in Korea) try this:

80% ashigaru, 20% samurai. 10% of total army is cavalry (no bow armed). Samurai foot is 5-10% bow, the rest light spear/ swordsmen. Ashigaru are:

25-33% arquebus (as medium foot), 15-20% bow (either as medium or light foot or a combination of both), 25-30% pike (as heavy foot), the rest as medium foot light spear.

For the entire period I would apply the following suggestions:

Samurai foot: Determined foot, heavy armor, Impact foot, swordsmen. (Bowmen should not be determined or impact rated).
Samurai Cavalry: Cavalry, Heavy Armored, Swordsmen.
Ashigaru Pike: Heavy Foot, Pikemen, Armored.
Ashigaru Spear: Medium Foot, Armored, Light spear.
Ashigaru Bow: Light foot (perhaps medium after 1580), armored, bow.
Ashigaru Arquebus: Light foot from 1543-1560, medium foot after, Armored, arquebus.


I look forward to any input/ comments on the above list. I also am working on post 1500 Ming and Korean lists so I will post those here at some point in the future.

Cheers.

[irondog068]

I am pretty much in agreement with you except woth the later peroid.
My sources seem to least the army as 50/50 ashigaru/samurai for around Korea and later. Saying this I would limit my 50% Samurai to 20% cavalry.

I would also be avoid giving and Japanes unit pike classifacation. Saying that do you think spear is too weak for Ashigaru? I know clans liked to have 1 to 3 kern length Yari. But I have never read of a benifit of the 15 foot over the 10 foot yari, just the Diaymo's prefrence (cost?) of arming his Ashigaru. There formations were much too open and did not use depth such as in Western armies. After "The Rat" (I cannot spell Hiodeshi and the rat was his nickname) signd the rule that established the cast system Ashigaru were Bushido and even in the this class there was a lot emphis on single man combat even in formation so the formation were looser. One famous Diaymo had the knick name "Master of Yari" for his love of single man combat with a 12 foot yari!

I would also give the Samurai Skilled swordsman. Besides these few things we seem to be in agreement on just about everything. I would give all Ashigaru the option to be medium armored.
Samurai with bow by 1580 were almost a relic on the battlefield since the yari and Teppo were the mainstays in the battlefield.


Irondog

[Huaxtec15mm]

I am pretty much in agreement with you except woth the later peroid.
My sources seem to least the army as 50/50 ashigaru/samurai for around Korea and later. Saying this I would limit my 50% Samurai to 20% cavalry.

I would also be avoid giving and Japanes unit pike classifacation. Saying that do you think spear is too weak for Ashigaru? I know clans liked to have 1 to 3 kern length Yari. But I have never read of a benifit of the 15 foot over the 10 foot yari, just the Diaymo's prefrence (cost?) of arming his Ashigaru. There formations were much too open and did not use depth such as in Western armies. After "The Rat" (I cannot spell Hiodeshi and the rat was his nickname) signd the rule that established the cast system Ashigaru were Bushido and even in the this class there was a lot emphis on single man combat even in formation so the formation were looser. One famous Diaymo had the knick name "Master of Yari" for his love of single man combat with a 12 foot yari!

I would also give the Samurai Skilled swordsman. Besides these few things we seem to be in agreement on just about everything. I would give all Ashigaru the option to be medium armored.
Samurai with bow by 1580 were almost a relic on the battlefield since the yari and Teppo were the mainstays in the battlefield.


Irondog

Thanks for the feedback! I also agree with most of your points. A little feedback to your comments though.

20% of an army as cavalry in the "later period" (say 1580-1615) is probably a little high. Most recruiting lists I have seen for the Korean Campaigns and Sekigahara show cavalry to be at a rate of about 2 horsemen per 20 troops. If laborers, armorers, and other "non-combatants" are taken into account its about 1 horsemen per 20 troops recruited.

As to the "pike" classification, no one knows for sure how Japanese lancers fought but from their positioning in battlefield formations that we have records of and the information we have on reenactors use of them I think they would definitely fit the bill as pike. Surely they did not fight in as close order drill as European pike units did but they were still certainly used as an anti-cavalry role to protect gunners, bowmen, or to deny ground.

As I recall, the Oda family history lists how in a certain battle the Oda Lancers completely dominated the enemy Saito Lancers because of the considerable difference in length between the two sides lances (ie. pikes). I have included a video below to show the effectiveness of the Japanese Lance in battle that I believe justifies it as a pike POA in FoGR.

Perhaps there is a need for a "Pike*" like bow* in FoG. That could be for troops who fought with pike in a less dense formation (like Ashigaru or Highland Clansmen in the Flodden Campaign). Or perhaps just rating them as "medium" infantry pike would be suitable enough.

I agree that ashigaru could downgrade to "armored" as a choice. As to "skilled swordsmen" for the samurai I think that is falling a bit into the trap of the "myth" or "cult" of the samurai swordsmen as being invincible. The cult of the sword did not really start til well after the Sengoku period. No doubt there were outstanding individual swordsmen and sword fighting schools during this time but the far majority of samurai during this massed war era would have only "good' swordsmenship skills...not great. In fact, by 1580 80% of samurai were actually farmers, which ment about 2/3 of their year was spent planting and collecting crops, not on weapons training. Hideyoshi's class edict may have changed that in the territories he governed to some degree, but not enough to make all samurai expert swordsmen.

I recall both reading and hearing in a lecture by one of my martial arts instructors (Kensho Furuya, http://www.amazon.com/KODO-Ancient-Less ... 727&sr=1-1) that after about 1530, katanas were produced on such a mass scale that the quality of them dropped tremendously. The swords broke in combat so often that samurai often carried 2-3 extra swords into combat with them! That is why most modern sword collectors todaymostly collect pre-1500 period swords.

If you read the Koreans' histories of the Imjin War (Admiral Yi's Memorials, etc...) they do not mention being impressed with the Japanese swordsmenship. They are much more impressed with their gunners (arquebus) ability over any other japanese weapon system.

Anyway, I appreciate your getting the ball rolling on these guys. I look forward to seeing what the Designers (The great Creators ) do with the post 1500 Samurai. No doubt some of us will feel obligated to tinker with the lists a bit. But you know how gamers can be.

As I mentioned above, I have already started tinkering with Ming and Yi Koreans (post 1500) as well. I havent play tested either yet as I am still painting armies and am also waiting for the basic FoGR playtesting to get a little further along.

Cheers. Hope you enjoy the below video from Ten to Chi to (aka. "Heaven and Earth").

Danny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zf1Mpf6id8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj2JMgUfby8

[irondog068]

Once again we are close to total agreement!
I think we own the same books. I agree about the Cavalry in Korea especilly during the second invasion. Ith higher about I stated is more or less for the Takada lovers out there.

I still disagree about pike though. But, I do not think japanese cavalry should get lance either. So if there is no lance we lose the argument for pike. I also do not think a Ashigaru unit 4 bases deep and 2 wide is corret nor does it look good. And the cost of making my 28mm Perry's into unit's that large is well obsene.

The skilled swordsman is not my idea in the rule book they have now they give 2 examples of skilled swordsman. Romans and Samurai. I am not giving them the + for there ablity to wield a Katana. For the most part they are using Yari. It is just to make it simpler giving the Samurai/Monks Impact, Skilled swordsman. That Just spear or impact swordsman. Once a melee broke down the Samurai should have a eaiser time against Ashigaru and Koreans. My first thought was impact offensive spear or offensive spear/swordsman.

The Samurai/Monks Impact/skilled swordsman is just to keep it simple and let the gamer decide in his little mind what his 15mm/28mm Samurai are wielding. If it makes them sleep better thinking they are wield Katana ala myth good. If they are like me and thinking they are mostly wielding Yari with a few Naganata and a Katana or 2 good for me.

Does that explain my thought process. Let me know taking these few ideas how you would rate standard Ashigaru and Samurai including cavalry.

Dave

[Lord_Arioch]

Hi guys.
Chat on this topic (Feudal Japan) is not as active as I had hoped. The Sengoku Jidai is one of my favorite periods.
Using the FoG Ancient lists I thought the following would work nicely;

Yari Samurai / Medium foot / Drilled / Superior / Armoured / Offensive spear / Swordsman / 14 points
Horse Samurai / Cavalry / Drilled / Superior / Armoured / Light spear / Swordsman / 17 points

Yari Ashigaru / Medium foot / Drilled / Average / Protected / Defensive spear / 7 points
Arquebus Ashigaru / Light foot / Drilled / Average / Protected / Arquebus / 6 points

Making the Yari Sam & Ash both medium inf gives them mobility.

Making the Arquebus light foot gives them the mobility to flee when charged.

thoughts?

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

From my limited knowledge of the rules I seem to remeber it being said that you couldnt have offensive spear and swordsman.

Yari Samurai / Medium foot / Drilled / Superior / Armoured / Offensive spear / Swordsman / 14 points

Were Samurai really that good? They are as good as Romans or Spartans.

[irondog068]

Compared to the Ashigaru in this time peroid, Yes.

I would change Teppo to Medium foot much like the English Longbow. Nagashino was like a Japanese Againcourt. Takada cavalry was shot to pieces by formed teppo behind a rickity bamboo fence.

I understand why you would make the Samurai Medium but, they did have shock value and if you played against a army not from Japan you would be crushed by a army that had heavy foot. so my thoughts are:

Change Samurai to Heavy
Change Teppo to Medium
Add Yumi as light skirmishers (longbow)

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

If your comparing the Samurai to Ashigaru with regards to stats and stating the light foot as longbow due to them shooting down Jap Cav then you shouldnt need to change the Samurai heavy foot as you basing that decision on fighting enemy heavy foot rather than themselves.

From what limited knowledge I have Japanese land forces in the 16th century were much better than their Korean counterparts but the Koreans sound very poor indeed. Would Korean foot count as heavy or medium? I would guess medium but even if they didnt they would likely be average at best and most likely poor so a superior medium foot unit of death would still win.

If you made the Samurai heavy foot with their current stats they would be some of the best foot in the world and would that truely represent them? Medium foot is not that much of a disadvantage past impact.

Please do not take offence at these observations, im just looking at this issue from an outsiders view i.e. I dont have a Japanese army and probably wont.

I also realise that people can and will make their own stats with regards to Samurai.

edit- You could also make the Ashigaru - poor, Samurai - Average/Superior, Real Samurai (Guards, Vets) - Superior

Just a thought

[Lord_Arioch]

From my limited knowledge of the rules I seem to remember it being said that you couldnt have offensive spear and swordsman.

Marvin

Yes. Thanks Marin. You are right. I initially had the Samurai armed with light spear/swordsman and should have removed swordsman when I switched it to Offensive Spearman.




Yari Samurai / Medium foot / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Offensive Spear / 13 points
Bow Samurai / Medium foot / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Longbow / Swordsman / 14 points
Cav Samurai / Cavalry / Armoured / Superior / Drilled / Light spear / Swordsman / 17 points

Yari Ashigaru / Medium foot / Protected / Average / Drilled / Defensive Spear / 7 points
Bow Ashigaru / Medium foot / Protected / Average / Drilled / Bow / 7 points
Teppo Ashigaru / Medium foot / Protected / Average / Drilled / Arquebus / 6 points

Levy Ashigaru / Medium foot / None / Poor / Undrilled / Light Spear / 2 points

After thinking about it (and seeing Irondogs suggestion) I felt the Teppo Ashigaru and bow Ashigaru should be Medium foot.

I still think Yari Samurai should be medium foot. They are more inclined to engage in individual combat as opposed to fighting in close formation, which is the definition of Heavy foot.
Looking at the Impact and Melee charts I don't see any disadvantage that Medium foot would have against Heavy.
I think I stretched things a little by giving Yari Sam/Ash Offensive and Defensive Spear capability. Perhaps the light spear/swordsman fits Yari Samurai better? I'm not sure if Samurai should be Impact troops. Is a Yari Samurai charge equal to a Gallic charge or a Roman Legionares charge?

Earlier discussions in this thread talk of army composition. Although I agree with the % of Ashigaru to Samurai listed an army created using these percentages makes for very small Samurai battlegroups (Eg. One stand of Samurai Cavalry in a 600 point army).
Has anyone created a Sengoku Jidai starter Samurai army?

Mike C








[/quote]

[nikgaukroger]

I still think Yari Samurai should be medium foot. They are more inclined to engage in individual combat as opposed to fighting in close formation, which is the definition of Heavy foot.
Looking at the Impact and Melee charts I don't see any disadvantage that Medium foot would have against Heavy.

-1 on CT for MF losing to HF (or mounted) in the open.

In FoG:AM nearly all far eastern foot are MF because of the -1 against mounted on the CT as we perceive them a being a bit vulnerable to mounted; need not follow for FoG:R of course, but I throw it out as an example of the sort of thinking that can go into troop classification.

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

No problem Mike, im here to judge

As long as your having fun with it I cant see a problem, the only issue might appear if the 'official' list is different and you want to play in comps.

Dont listen to Nick, he hates camels or he did, I heard rumours he had converted to the love of our lumpy friend.

In my humble opinion Samurai are well represented by medium foot, if only I had a knight army to run them over with

Con

[irondog068]

I think I am going to try the list but still make the Samurai heavy. Keep in mind the term Ashigau translates to "Light feet" Which tell me they moved quicker than the Samurai. Also in the later peroid (nearer 1600) the Yumi was used in Ashigaru Skirmish formation. These would be max say 4 to 6 bases. Also the Samurai left the Yumi and took up Teppo.
And the Samurai had a fear type thing as attacked. And yes they fought looser but so did the Ashigau since they were also Bushido. Mind you they were the lowest rund on the highest Bushido ladder.

[Lord_Arioch]

he hates camels or he did, I heard rumours he had converted to the love of our lumpy friend.

I've heard camels have that effect

I think I am going to try the list but still make the Samurai heavy. Keep in mind the term Ashigau translates to "Light feet" Which tell me they moved quicker than the Samurai. Also in the later peroid (nearer 1600) the Yumi was used in Ashigaru Skirmish formation. These would be max say 4 to 6 bases. Also the Samurai left the Yumi and took up Teppo.
And the Samurai had a fear type thing as attacked. And yes they fought looser but so did the Ashigau since they were also Bushido. Mind you they were the lowest rund on the highest Bushido ladder.

Yup. All good points.

I made a 600 point army list. It's heavy on the Cavalry.

• Daimyo (Commander in Chief) 1 Field Commander 50 points
  Taisho (Sub-Commanders) 2 Allied Troop Commanders x 2 50 points
  Samurai Cavalry 2 BGs Each 4 bases of ; Superior, Armoured, Drilled, Cavalry, Light spear, Swordsman 136 points
  Yari Foot Samurai 2 BGs Each 4 bases of; Superior, Armoured, Drilled, Medium foot, Offensive spear 104 points
  Yari Foot Ashigaru 4 BGs Each 6 bases of; Average, Protected, Drilled, Medium foot, Defensive spear 168 points
  Yumi Foot Ashigaru 1 BG 6 bases of; Average, Protected, Drilled, Medium foot, Bow 42 points
  Teppo Ashigaru 2 BGs Each 4 bases of; Average, Protected, Drilled, Medium foot, Arquebus 48 points
  Camp 1 Maku (Unfortified Camp) --
  
  Total 11 BGs Camp, 8 mounted bases, 46 foot bases, 3 commanders 598 points

[irondog068]

Like Takada?
Treat the Yumi as a long bow. It had a long range and was deadly accurate. There are several accounts of Samurai after a battle having there head tied to a tree and having a arrow pulled out of the eye socket! That is why it stuck around as a skirimish/sniping weapon.
I was going to put a 650 list together and give it a whril. My change is:
1) No cavalry. Mine are all mounted for KK2 and I like the rules. I like the morale rule where Samurai/Monks affects everybody, Ashigaru/Ronin affects Ashigaru and lower and Peasents only affect peasents because well, they are peasents!
2) Samurai are going to be heavy, They were the heavy infantry of the peroid looser formation or not.
3) Since I am no "Blessed" with the Beta rules I am treating Teppo as longbow.
4) adding 1x4 stand unit of Yumi (treat as longbow) Skirmishers.

I will be loosing the skirmishers soon as I am basing the for KK2 also. And for any who play those rules my infantry are 3 to a stand not the 4 as KK2 says. Also all infantry are on what amounts to a FOG Med base.

Irondog

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

Your list looks good Mike.

Also all infantry are on what amounts to a FOG Med base.

See, its fate!!!! It has already been decided for us!!!!

[irondog068]

Oh stop yourself
I am going to put a Samurai list together and give it a whirl next week I hope. If not I may just stick with KK2

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

Let us know how it goes!!!

Good luck!!!

[irondog068]

I had a thought (I have them once in a while). Since my Bride has yet to pop and unable to try the "Samurai night fever" with me treating Samurai as heavy instead of med. My thought was this How does DBR treat Samurai? I know in KK I and II as well as Takio, Samurai Knight Fever, Warmaster Ancients, Impetus and Katana to Yari all treat Samurai and Ashigaru in this peroid as the same type just diffrent armor (Basically heavy). I wonder how DBR does since FOG gets most of it's troop ratings from DBA/DBR.

I will sit down and wait for my answer

[Huaxtec15mm]

Slightly off topic...Ikko-Ikki in 15mm have been submitted to Wargames Factory for pre-orders:


http://wargamesfactory.lefora.com/2009/ ... st14576073