FOG2 Ancient Open Beta v1.6.11 - changelog

[rbodleyscott]

All players are invited to join the Open Beta for version 1.6.11 of FOG2 Ancients. (Available soon)

(Please make any comments on the Slitherine forum)

In particular please test the new army lists, and let us know if anything does not work, or if you think the points cost of the new units may be wrong.

Open Beta Version 1.6.11

• New Army Lists:

• o Meroitic 280 BC – 400 AD
  o Axumite 100-970 AD
  o Beja 250-849 AD
  o Beja 850-1049 AD
  o Blemmye 298-499 AD
  o Blemmye 500-550 AD
  o Nobatae 298-499 AD
  o Nobatae 500-550 AD
  o Christian Nubian 550-1049 AD

• Other list changes:

• o Kardakes Hoplites added to Achaemenid Persian 419-329 BC list.
  o Irregular Foot added to Seleucid 300-206 BC list.
  o Tweaks to Indian (Rajput) and Ghaznavid lists.

• Many thanks to Paul Adaway (and Steve Hales of Little Big Men Studios for shield patterns where appropriate) for all the new units/textures.

[MVP7]

Great content update with really interesting new lists and units. I didn't notice any issues playing a difficulty 3 game of Christian Nubia vs Axumites.

The Axumite list seems especially powerful for the era that it covers. I know I'm in the minority thinking that the loose order Warband is one of the best units in the game, but it dominates non-open terrain, and it's still great in the open. Axumites have a ton of these loose order Warbands (Axumite Foot), and they have a good number of superior medium impact foot (Veteran Axumite Foot) for a more maneuverable precision work around, or spearheading, the warbands. They have a decent amount of archers to soften up the few enemies that the two aforementioned units can't directly manage. The only major weakness in Axumite list is that they don't have cavalry, but then again, they have elephants that help them counter enemy cavalry. They have a great selection of allies as well.

Christian Nubia is another very interesting list although I have never lost as swiftly and utterly as I did playing them against difficulty 3 Axumites (that was pretty much the worst possible matchup for the Nubia though). The Nubian raw light javelinmen is a peculiar units since average light javelinmen has been the lowest cost and performance light unit with the sole exception of Seleucid levy skirmishers up until now. Is there some particular event or anecdote that explains this unit's presence in the list, or has it carried over from some older army list? (Not that I mind its inclusion either way.)

The adjusted Indian lists are interesting just like the overhauled Medieval lists. Kudos to newbiesoldat for his insights on the subject.

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks

The Nubian raw light javelinmen is a peculiar units since average light javelinmen has been the lowest cost and performance light unit with the sole exception of Seleucid levy skirmishers up until now. Is there some particular event or anecdote that explains this unit's presence in the list, or has it carried over from some older army list? (Not that I mind its inclusion either way.)

I have my doubts about this unit too. It is from the tabletop list, but I don't know why it was graded so poorly.

[Paul59]

Thanks

The Nubian raw light javelinmen is a peculiar units since average light javelinmen has been the lowest cost and performance light unit with the sole exception of Seleucid levy skirmishers up until now. Is there some particular event or anecdote that explains this unit's presence in the list, or has it carried over from some older army list? (Not that I mind its inclusion either way.)

I have my doubts about this unit too. It is from the tabletop list, but I don't know why it was graded so poorly.

In the intro to the list it says that the Nubian archers were highly regarded, but the contemporary Arab texts don't mention spearmen at all, despite lots of spears in the archaeological record. Therefore it concludes that the Nubian spearmen/javelinmen were probably not very good.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Looked over the new units costs with the updated points chart, all looks good

[SnuggleBunnies]

Related to the more recent points chart -

"-3 unit discount for 2-deep Warrior, Impact Foot, Swordsmen to allow for Unmanoeuvrability. Likewise Poeni Foot, who are Average, but whose Experience of 50 makes them Unmanoeuvrable."

Should this apply to raw medium foot in general, who presently are stripped of the free maneuverability without a corresponding discount? This would end up applying to -

Raw Spearmen and Archers 32 -> 29
Militia Thureophoroi 30 -> 27
Kushite Spearmen 33 -> 30
Nubian Spearmen 24 -> 21

Thoughts on these? On the one hand, I'm not sure that the Raw Spearmen and Archers really need the help, but then again Raw Skutatoi/Archers are only 27 and arguably a more useful unit thanks to Def Spear and HF (even without the +1).

Militia Thureos would thus be 3pts cheaper than their HF equivalent, Raw Hoplites. I think that's fair given that Thureos are 6pts cheaper than Merc Hops? The Militia are a pretty uncommon unit anyway, not appearing in large numbers in any list. This is the unit I think that could most appropriately use the discount.

Kushite Spears - the equivalent Raw Shieldwall is 33. In this case I am not sure that a drop to 30 feels necessary.

Nubian Spearmen - this does feel dangerously spammy.

Thoughts?

[rbodleyscott]

Related to the more recent points chart -

"-3 unit discount for 2-deep Warrior, Impact Foot, Swordsmen to allow for Unmanoeuvrability. Likewise Poeni Foot, who are Average, but whose Experience of 50 makes them Unmanoeuvrable."

Should this apply to raw medium foot in general, who presently are stripped of the free maneuverability without a corresponding discount? This would end up applying to -

Raw Spearmen and Archers 32 -> 29
Militia Thureophoroi 30 -> 27
Kushite Spearmen 33 -> 30
Nubian Spearmen 24 -> 21

Thoughts on these? On the one hand, I'm not sure that the Raw Spearmen and Archers really need the help, but then again Raw Skutatoi/Archers are only 27 and arguably a more useful unit thanks to Def Spear and HF (even without the +1).

Militia Thureos would thus be 3pts cheaper than their HF equivalent, Raw Hoplites. I think that's fair given that Thureos are 6pts cheaper than Merc Hops? The Militia are a pretty uncommon unit anyway, not appearing in large numbers in any list. This is the unit I think that could most appropriately use the discount.

Kushite Spears - the equivalent Raw Shieldwall is 33. In this case I am not sure that a drop to 30 feels necessary.

Nubian Spearmen - this does feel dangerously spammy.

Thoughts?

I am not inclined to increase spam.

[SnuggleBunnies]

I am not inclined to increase spam.

Fair.

[Dux Limitis]

I know, the studio has budget problems, but I still want to give some feedbacks/thoughts about the models of the Kardakes Hoplites, it was my proposal to add them though.

Contemporary sources such as Greek artworks suggested that Achaemenid Persians rarely used helmets, including most of their armoured cavalry. Almost all of their infantry wore hoods/turbans and Phrygian caps, also equipped with the linothorax(or not)in the same manners as their Greek foes from the Greco-Persian Wars to the Macedonian-Persian Wars.

A more conservative reconstruction is just to use the models of the Sparabara Foot, though it might take some time to re-animate their models.

[rbodleyscott]

Thanks, but as you say, there is no ongoing art budget (or access to 3D artist's or animator's time) for tweaks like this.

We have to do what we can with the existing models. Paul Adaway has done marvels in modding the vanilla models in his own time, but he is not a 3D modeller and hence is only able to change textures, not models or animations.

So with the Kardakes Hoplites he has just aimed for a Persian flavour using existing models, we can't have complete accuracy.

[Paul59]

I did consider reanimating the Sparabara model, but the problem would be the shield. The huge Achaemenid pavise would be totally wrong for the later period, and even though I could change it's shape with an alpha layer, it would very flat and not be dished like an Aspis/hoplon. It would also suffer from being invisible if viewed from 90 degrees, which I don't think would be acceptable for an official model.

[Paul59]

However, if these troops were described by Greeks as "hoplites", then it's not unreasonable to assume that they were equipped very similarly to Greek hoplites, who usually (always?) wore a helmet.

[Dux Limitis]

Thanks, but as you say, there is no ongoing art budget (or access to 3D artist's or animator's time) for tweaks like this.

We have to do what we can with the existing models. Paul Adaway has done marvels in modding the vanilla models in his own time, but he is not a 3D modeller and hence is only able to change textures, not models or animations.

So with the Kardakes Hoplites he has just aimed for a Persian flavour using existing models, we can't have complete accuracy.

Thank you mister, it's a hard decision under a very limited budget, I sincerely do not hope the Slitherine took too much from the game's revenue. I think the budget limits should be considered even before the making of the FoG 2.

And if, only if we can see the FoG 3 in the rest of our lifetime, I hope the game can either reverse to the P&S' art style(it's budget-wise)or find a more advanced and easier-to-use engine. I've seen many advanced engines like the Total Wars' and the Mount & Blades'. The artist needs to make human models first, then he only needs to make/buy different clothes and armour pieces, then attach them to the models freely. it will save a lot of work and allow more variety, unlike the currently used Archon engine, you have to make a whole model from head to toe. I know a few friends who are making mods for these games.

Cheers to Mr.Paul, he did marvelous work in modding the vanilla models under so many limits, especially in his own time, may God bless him.

[Dux Limitis]

I did consider reanimating the Sparabara model, but the problem would be the shield. The huge Achaemenid pavise would be totally wrong for the later period, and even though I could change it's shape with an alpha layer, it would very flat and not be dished like an Aspis/hoplon. It would also suffer from being invisible if viewed from 90 degrees, which I don't think would be acceptable for an official model.

Thanks for your hard work, you're already doing great, cheers!

[Dux Limitis]

However, if these troops were described by Greeks as "hoplites", then it's not unreasonable to assume that they were equipped very similarly to Greek hoplites, who usually (always?) wore a helmet.

I presume that Aristobulus and Ptolemy witnessed them from the Macedonian ranks, which was about hundreds of paces from the Persian ranks, so perhaps they identified them by their hoplon/aspis, thrusting spears, tight formation etc. Judging by the general lack of helmets in the Achaemenid Persian army, I don't think they will issue helmets to thousands of men. Especially the Strabo described another type of "Kardakes"(though they were more like peltasts)who were equipped with metal armours but wore "tower-like hats", presumably Phrygian caps.

[toska]

I'm glad you're still working on the game despite the delay. I hope you're secretly making another FOG from another historical period!

On the other hand, I take this opportunity to request that the unique units of Spartan oplites of the TTmod be included.

[MVP7]

Thanks

The Nubian raw light javelinmen is a peculiar units since average light javelinmen has been the lowest cost and performance light unit with the sole exception of Seleucid levy skirmishers up until now. Is there some particular event or anecdote that explains this unit's presence in the list, or has it carried over from some older army list? (Not that I mind its inclusion either way.)

I have my doubts about this unit too. It is from the tabletop list, but I don't know why it was graded so poorly.

In the intro to the list it says that the Nubian archers were highly regarded, but the contemporary Arab texts don't mention spearmen at all, despite lots of spears in the archaeological record. Therefore it concludes that the Nubian spearmen/javelinmen were probably not very good.

Having played with the Nubians a bit more I'd suggest just making the light javelinmen average. In terms of gameplay, they are practically identical to average javelinmen so the quality ultimately just feels like a useful discount.

When it comes to historical accounts, something not being mentioned usually points to average rather than exceptional. Compared to all the other FoG2 army lists, I doubt that this one faction would somehow have the worst light javelinmen of all (unless the whole unit is misinterpretation and should be poorly armed rabble instead).