GC West 42-43 finally I finished it

[PanzerTum]

So after multiple failed attempts in the past where I never persevered beyond Syracuse I finally made it to the end of GC West 42-43 and GC West 44 beckons.

This DLC poses some unique restrictions in both core size and prestige levels. Due to the small core and skimpy prestige levels it is difficult to build up your army and train green units.
You don't have the unit slots for inexperienced units and most scenarios require all the experience you can bring to the field.

Especially the lack of experienced infantry is tricky for battles like Dieppe.
For Salerno landing I did the 3 turn decisive victory strategy, quite easy and why not.
In the Salerno counterattack I lost a few units so started that scenario again but still had some losses. I am using 3 Wurfrahmen as arty and 1 StuG and 17cm.
Until now I really never used these Wurfrahmen since I usually rely on towed arty mainly. The extra screening needed for these mobile artillery units is not always possible though with limited ground units and a strong enemy airforce.
Already a few times I had to give them regular reinforcements during the scenario. They needed it to survive and I did not have the prestige for elite reinforcements.

The Volturno line was my toughest scenario but mainly because I expected the main attack in the north and deployed my units accordingly. Also with the final massive allied counterattack a few units got caught on the wrong side of the river near Naples.
In the end that wasn't pretty...exciting though to try and hang on..
In the replay of Volturno my deployment was better of course and my tactics a bit more cautious and was able to extract a DV in the final turn.

In the end my airforce is relatively powerful and am usually able to deal with the enemy airforce attack waves in 2 or 3 turns.

My core at the start of GC West 44 looks this:

1 Mountain inf ** (useful in the mountains of Italy)
4 Grenadier *** & ****
--
1 Panther A Kerscher ****
1 Tiger 1 **
4 SE Tiger 1 ****
--
2 7.5cm Paks, pretty much unused
--
1 17cm artillery
1 StuG III
3 Wurfrahmen
--
2 8.8 AA
1 12.8 AA
--
1 BF 109F
4 FW190 including Bar and Priller
1 Ta 152H Schmidt
1 Do 335A Bauer
1 ME 410A Rudel
1 JU 88

Maybe my airforce is too big? In scenarios like Volturno I deployed 5 fighters and 2 Tac bombers. In a 20 slot scenario that only leaves 13 units for artillery, infantry, air defense and core armour which isn't really all that much.
So from those in the know, is the core balance sufficient for GC West 44? Or should I maybe change priorities to less fighters, more air defence and more infantry?
I'm going to find out anyway I guess...

Also haven't been able to stockpile prestige so that may come back to bite me

[goose_2]

Congrats on persevering. Thanks for the list and write up, this kind of thing helps out so many players.

Blessings,

[rubyjuno]

Well done, and thanks for sharing. I'm part way through GC West 42-43 but taking an extended break as to be honest, I got a bit fed up with it. Probably due to the restrictions you mention.

[Delta66]

You didn't mention on which difficulty you are playing.

Just my humble opinion:
- Although historically the Germans were strategically defending on the western front, in this campaign you want fast and mobile units in most scenarios.
- Both Pak are indeed pretty useless.
- Movement 3 infantry are useful, but when comes 43 version Grenadiers are way better than Gebirgsjäger.
So If you have movement heroes Like Oleh Dir Grenadierrs are better. Still a Gebirgsjäger though weaker may offer additional movement options.
-Tiger.I are more expensive but inferior to Panther in practice, their biggest issue is that they don't upgrade in family to Tiger.II. So basically this is a dead end. Their low fuel is a pain especially in 45 snow scenarios.
- You'll never have enough artillery especially when the weather turns bad. Wurfrahmen are awesome if you can afford them but some range 3 artillery help in many situation, I favor Hummel to complement Wurfrahmen.
-Your air force is fine. You'll need a strong air force for many scenarios. Some Flak helps, the Italian Flak you can rescue from Taranto (edit: not Syracuse) is better than the German ones, it has the same values but can also fire in transport mode. The 12.8 though powerful is not as flexible as the switchable 88. A SP-Flak is useful on some scenarios.
- A second strategic bomber is very useful especially for scenarios featuring many allied battleships.
- An armored car is also useful on some scenarios where you have a ton of flags to grab.

In case you missed it I started a series of video replay on GC-West, though I encourage you to try your on approach first.
But if you feel stuck you might find useful ideas.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115262

[Locarnus]

I'm curious if anyone tried GC West 42-43 without the capped core limitation?
So instead of taking only the 9 units deployable in the first GC West 42-43 scenario (usually those with super heroes), continue with the whole trained up GC 41 core force?
After all, only a single checkmark (clear reserves) in the first scenario enforces that restriction, so rather easy to deactivate.

I really don't like how the super heroes diminish the gameplay and unit variety. And this transition restriction makes it even worse.

[Delta66]

I didn't tried without the limit, but in Manstein with RNG I had no problem finishing it .

That being said, beside the difficulty. I don't like GC West campaign design. Sure there are issue with GC East (prestige flood, no restrictions on unit types in your core...), so I understand the want to change some things. But the idea of developing units from 39 to 41 and then discarding most of them is pretty bad, especially as afterward you receive tons of captured equipment. Then with the special heroes many players will use samey core. Plus in 45 you are limited to 375 xp, which further limit development options. In the end you feel less "attached" to your units compared to GC east.

Moreover considering the wide range of down scaling in GC west, the whole D-Day on 5 beaches is depicted at the same map size than Villers-Bocage, which was a tactical engagement. So at any rates being able to transfer more units would be more immersive.

[Locarnus]

I didn't tried without the limit, but in Manstein with RNG I had no problem finishing it .

That being said, beside the difficulty. I don't like GC West campaign design. Sure there are issue with GC East (prestige flood, no restrictions on unit types in your core...), so I understand the want to change some things. But the idea of developing units from 39 to 41 and then discarding most of them is pretty bad, especially as afterward you receive tons of captured equipment. Then with the special heroes many players will use samey core. Plus in 45 you are limited to 375 xp, which further limit development options. In the end you feel less "attached" to your units compared to GC east.

Moreover considering the wide range of down scaling in GC west, the whole D-Day on 5 beaches is depicted at the same map size than Villers-Bocage, which was a tactical engagement. So at any rates being able to transfer more units would be more immersive.

I totally agree.
I can make up my own unit type restrictions, eg with my house "rule of one" (only one unit per unit version, so eg only one Panzer III M, a second Panzer III has to be a different version, eg L or N).
But I also do not like that prestige is mainly some sort of highscore rather than a game mechanic after the first few scenarios on most difficulties. And that imbalance is imho much harder to deal with, Ultimate is too much for me personally (respect to you for doing it in your youtube playthrough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsccAPQ ... UZ8nzevoMs).
Richard Martin's custom "Napoleon" difficulty (based on double Rommel, double Field Marshal) might be more doable for me, especially with some RNG.

I thought about removing that core transition limit between GC 41 and GC West 42-43, but I'm not sure how to deal with the prestige ramifications.
My first thought was, to make all those GC West 42-43 gifted core units into aux units. But that would only partially account for all those additionally transitioned, experienced core units form GC 41.
And I really don't want to start messing too much with all those scenarios individually. I did that for Afrika Korps and once you start, it is hard to abstain from also correcting geography and other stuff.

[PanzerTum]

My difficulty level is General. I tried Field Marshall but I find it difficult to get used to the slower experience build up.

I prefer Tigers above Panthers because of their better defense values. Panthers get shot up more easily.
But indeed Tigers cannot be upgraded so in a prestige starved GC this might become a serious issue.

Except for the first few scenarios the whole GC West campaign is new to me. For 42/43 I did read up on the available forum posts, mostly from beta testing, but for the 44 campaign I decided to go blind into the scenarios. Something I've never done before but it gives an extra edge to the gameplay.

In 44 Cassino I lost an experienced Grenadier which I cannot really afford. If the Core imported into 42/43 was somewhat bigger that would be less of an issue.
Although I find the rationale that most of the core has to stay in the east a valid one.

The way forward in 44 is to try and hoard some prestige. No more overstrengthening of armour. The gebirgsjager at 2 stars experience will become a grenadier eventually.

[Delta66]

I thought about removing that core transition limit between GC 41 and GC West 42-43, but I'm not sure how to deal with the prestige ramifications.
My first thought was, to make all those GC West 42-43 gifted core units into aux units. But that would only partially account for all those additionally transitioned, experienced core units form GC 41.
And I really don't want to start messing too much with all those scenarios individually. I did that for Afrika Korps and once you start, it is hard to abstain from also correcting geography and other stuff.

You can make small fixes here or there like increasing the core limit or modifying the prestige from each scenarios in the campaign file. But I' m not sure it would result in a better playing experience.
Then you can do a major campaign overhaul but that would require a lot of work. In that case the first thing I would do is to clearly set a main campaign idea or philosophy. As IMO GC west lack consistency both in itself and as a branch of GC east. You can consider adding other significant battles, more Normandy, Lorraine 44, Aachen.

[Locarnus]

@PanzerTurm:
Yeah, I agree that there is a narrative point for leaving part of your core in the east.
However, getting captured KV tanks on the western front a few scenarios later pulls me right out of that immersion anyway.

You can make small fixes here or there like increasing the core limit or modifying the prestige from each scenarios in the campaign file. But I' m not sure it would result in a better playing experience.
Then you can do a major campaign overhaul but that would require a lot of work. In that case the first thing I would do is to clearly set a main campaign idea or philosophy. As IMO GC west lack consistency both in itself and as a branch of GC east. You can consider adding other significant battles, more Normandy, Lorraine 44, Aachen.

Hm, agreed.
It is probably not worth the time investment.
I'll probably just untick that "clear reserves after deploy" from the first GC 42-43 scenario, to let players take their whole GC 41 core with them. And just stop worrying about prestige balancing or some form of consistency for GC West.

[goose_2]

@PanzerTurm:
Yeah, I agree that there is a narrative point for leaving part of your core in the east.
However, getting captured KV tanks on the western front a few scenarios later pulls me right out of that immersion anyway.

You can make small fixes here or there like increasing the core limit or modifying the prestige from each scenarios in the campaign file. But I' m not sure it would result in a better playing experience.
Then you can do a major campaign overhaul but that would require a lot of work. In that case the first thing I would do is to clearly set a main campaign idea or philosophy. As IMO GC west lack consistency both in itself and as a branch of GC east. You can consider adding other significant battles, more Normandy, Lorraine 44, Aachen.

Hm, agreed.
It is probably not worth the time investment.
I'll probably just untick that "clear reserves after deploy" from the first GC 42-43 scenario, to let players take their whole GC 41 core with them. And just stop worrying about prestige balancing or some form of consistency for GC West.

I think I might have thought of a way I could impose my own restriction on the west playthrough. I get all units from the East, but I can only deploy the ones I deploy in the first scenario and only new ones as the slots open up. This way I get a feel for the restrictions of not importing the whole core, while at the same time not needing to start all over with what they give me sporadically throughout the campaign. Thoughts or do I need to explain mor?

[Locarnus]

I think I might have thought of a way I could impose my own restriction on the west playthrough. I get all units from the East, but I can only deploy the ones I deploy in the first scenario and only new ones as the slots open up. This way I get a feel for the restrictions of not importing the whole core, while at the same time not needing to start all over with what they give me sporadically throughout the campaign. Thoughts or do I need to explain mor?

Interesting, that could work to preserve some of the original campaign mechanic intentions.

Perhaps the ground forces of the GC 41 core could even be initially "split" between the French and Italian fronts of GC West?
So non-bonus-SE ground units that are deployed in France from St. Nazaire until Gironde scenarios of GC West 42-43 can not also be deployed in Syracuse scenario of GC West 42-43.
Gironde allows for 16 normal core slots + 4 bonus SE ones, while Syracuse allows for 18 normal core slots + 4 bonus SE ones.
Aircraft and bonus SE can deploy on both fronts.

The last italian scenario is Monte Cassino in GC West 44, with 23 normal core slots + 5 bonus SE ones.
After that, Beaches of Normandy is the return to France in GC West 44, with 25 normal core slots + 5 bonus SE ones.
GC West 44 ends with the Eindhoven scenario, which allows 28 normal core slots + 5 bonus SE ones.
This core separation for non-bonus-SE ground units could then be fully lifted for GC 45.

Just an idea so far, don't know if it could really work.
I'll have to think about the experience and prestige ramifications.
As well as taking a closer look at the viable deployment numbers.
Not to speak about the whole force balancing, since this idea would result in a much lower experience core for non-bonus-SE ground units, especially for crucial scenarios like Syracuse and Beaches of Normandy.

[Locarnus]

[...]
Especially the lack of experienced infantry is tricky for battles like Dieppe.
[...]
2 7.5cm Paks, pretty much unused
--
1 17cm artillery
1 StuG III
3 Wurfrahmen
--
2 8.8 AA
1 12.8 AA
[...]
Maybe my airforce is too big? In scenarios like Volturno I deployed 5 fighters and 2 Tac bombers. In a 20 slot scenario that only leaves 13 units for artillery, infantry, air defense and core armour which isn't really all that much.
So from those in the know, is the core balance sufficient for GC West 44? Or should I maybe change priorities to less fighters, more air defence and more infantry?
I'm going to find out anyway I guess...

Also haven't been able to stockpile prestige so that may come back to bite me

You mentioned that you missed experienced infantry for Dieppe.
Did your bonus SE units from GC 41 include any infantry, or did you go with a full tank force for those?

Do you plan to convert one of your towed AT guns to a self propelled variant?

About your 3 Wurfrahmen, imho the Hummel can be situationally better in unmodded Panzer Corps.
Especially the range of 3 on a mobile platform can make the difference when supporting a mobile advance against enemy defensive artillery. The Hummel only has 9 rate of fire compared to 10 rate of fire for the Wurfrahmen, but it also has 5 ammo instead of 4 and is considerably cheaper (so getting hit is much less expensive). Other stats are much worse against soft targets, but better against enemy hard targets.

Not sure about the 12.8cm AA, even though the 8.8cm AA starts to struggle.
I like some mobile AA, but my memory might be tainted by mod experience (where mobile AA has ground attack capability).

[PanzerTum]

You mentioned that you missed experienced infantry for Dieppe.
Did your bonus SE units from GC 41 include any infantry, or did you go with a full tank force for those?

Do you plan to convert one of your towed AT guns to a self propelled variant?

About your 3 Wurfrahmen, imho the Hummel can be situationally better in unmodded Panzer Corps.
Especially the range of 3 on a mobile platform can make the difference when supporting a mobile advance against enemy defensive artillery. The Hummel only has 9 rate of fire compared to 10 rate of fire for the Wurfrahmen, but it also has 5 ammo instead of 4 and is considerably cheaper (so getting hit is much less expensive). Other stats are much worse against soft targets, but better against enemy hard targets.

Not sure about the 12.8cm AA, even though the 8.8cm AA starts to struggle.
I like some mobile AA, but my memory might be tainted by mod experience (where mobile AA has ground attack capability).

My SE units were indeed all tanks at the start of 42/43, I was a core prepared for GC east, not one for GC west.

I indeed cannot afford elite replacements for the Wurfrahmen all the time, they are too expensive for that. So experience for these units is going backwards at the moment which doesn't affect there effectiveness too much, but another unit might be a good idea.

In Monte Cassino I upgraded a pak unit to Elephant because I was expecting a defensive battle in the south.
So far that has not really happened. Anyway when experience is low on the units to be upgraded you sometimes are better off just buying a green one and keeping the other one in reserve or selling it.

[ghostfearReal]

You didn't mention on which difficulty you are playing.

Just my humble opinion:
- Although historically the Germans were strategically defending on the western front, in this campaign you want fast and mobile units in most scenarios.
- Both Pak are indeed pretty useless.
- Movement 3 infantry are useful, but when comes 43 version Grenadiers are way better than Gebirgsjäger.
So If you have movement heroes Like Oleh Dir Grenadierrs are better. Still a Gebirgsjäger though weaker may offer additional movement options.
-Tiger.I are more expensive but inferior to Panther in practice, their biggest issue is that they don't upgrade in family to Tiger.II. So basically this is a dead end. Their low fuel is a pain especially in 45 snow scenarios.
- You'll never have enough artillery especially when the weather turns bad. Wurfrahmen are awesome if you can afford them but some range 3 artillery help in many situation, I favor Hummel to complement Wurfrahmen.
-Your air force is fine. You'll need a strong air force for many scenarios. Some Flak helps, the Italian Flak you can rescue from Syracuse is better than the German ones, it has the same values but can also fire in transport mode. The 12.8 though powerful is not as flexible as the switchable 88. A SP-Flak is useful on some scenarios.
- A second strategic bomber is very useful especially for scenarios featuring many allied battleships.
- An armored car is also useful on some scenarios where you have a ton of flags to grab.

In case you missed it I started a series of video replay on GC-West, though I encourage you to try your on approach first.
But if you feel stuck you might find useful ideas.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115262

Can you please elaborate on this Italian Flak? There is no core Italian unit in Syracuse. Which Flak can fire in transport mode? thanks.

[PanzerTum]

You didn't mention on which difficulty you are playing.

Just my humble opinion:
- Although historically the Germans were strategically defending on the western front, in this campaign you want fast and mobile units in most scenarios.
- Both Pak are indeed pretty useless.
- Movement 3 infantry are useful, but when comes 43 version Grenadiers are way better than Gebirgsjäger.
So If you have movement heroes Like Oleh Dir Grenadierrs are better. Still a Gebirgsjäger though weaker may offer additional movement options.
-Tiger.I are more expensive but inferior to Panther in practice, their biggest issue is that they don't upgrade in family to Tiger.II. So basically this is a dead end. Their low fuel is a pain especially in 45 snow scenarios.
- You'll never have enough artillery especially when the weather turns bad. Wurfrahmen are awesome if you can afford them but some range 3 artillery help in many situation, I favor Hummel to complement Wurfrahmen.
-Your air force is fine. You'll need a strong air force for many scenarios. Some Flak helps, the Italian Flak you can rescue from Syracuse is better than the German ones, it has the same values but can also fire in transport mode. The 12.8 though powerful is not as flexible as the switchable 88. A SP-Flak is useful on some scenarios.
- A second strategic bomber is very useful especially for scenarios featuring many allied battleships.
- An armored car is also useful on some scenarios where you have a ton of flags to grab.

In case you missed it I started a series of video replay on GC-West, though I encourage you to try your on approach first.
But if you feel stuck you might find useful ideas.
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=115262

Can you please elaborate on this Italian Flak? There is no core Italian unit in Syracuse. Which Flak can fire in transport mode? thanks.

Not sure about Syracuse but you can get an Italian AA in the Taranto scenario.
I played the Salerno path though so I did not get it.

[rubyjuno]

I just finished GCW 42-43 and like PanzerTum, thought I would share my thoughts (if anyone is still reading). I play on Field Marshall, with dice chess.

After GCE, with a massive core and prestige to burn, GCW is a different challenge. I was initially horrified to give up most of my core and prestige, but can see now that the developers have tried to do something different (as they did with my favourite DLC, Afrika Corps). It can be frustrating, scraping about for prestige and deciding which of your few core units to deploy, but after the slog of GCE it's quite refreshing. To start with, I upgraded and over strengthened my remaining core to the max before I lost all my prestige. That backfired, as the soft cap meant I hardly earned any prestige. I was near the end with less than 2000 prestige and units that needed patching up. I started again, and this time did less over strengthening, and was more careful. In GCE, upgrading was a no-brainer due to almost limitless prestige, but in GCW it's a much bigger decision. As PanzerTum said, forget about buying new units. I never use regular reinforcements, preferring to pay and keep the experience. My general strategy is to make air superiority a priority and have enough ground units for two strong combined arms battle groups. I ended GCW 42-43 with 7379 prestige, and the core below:


1 x 43 Grenadier (move hero)
2 x 43 Fallschirmjäger (Rarely used)
1 x SE Gebirgsjäger 43
2 x Pioniere 43 (move hero)

1 x Panzer IVF/2 (Rarely used)
1 x Panther A
4 x SE Tiger 1

2 cheap recons from Hardelot (Rarely used)

2 x Wurfrahmen 40 (range heroes)
2 x Hummel

1 x 8.8 cm FlaK 36
1 x 12.8 cm FlaK 40
2 x SdKfz 7/2

1 x Bf 109G (Rarely used)
6 x Fw 190 A
1 x Ta 152H

1 x Do 335A
1 x Me410A

2 x He 177A

[PanzerTum]

Of course we read it
It's a lot more prestige than I took into '44 so you should be alright.
GC 44 West is also a nice DLC. There are a few scenarios where the allowed core size is bigger than your actual core at that moment. I filled that up with a number of StuG IV switchable antitank/artillery. You can never have too much artillery..

On the whole GC 44 West is easier than 44 East which of course was pretty gruesome. But the scenarios do get a bit harder at the end, especially Eindhoven.

Seeing that the Panzer Corps bug has bitten me again I must say that I am already at the final scenario of 45, Sealion 45.
A very big scenario indeed.
But I think I'll replay Dunkirk45 again and only field a partial core since a number of units didn't do much except get in each others way. That should help with a bit more prestige which I think I am going to need in Sealion45

[Delta66]

Can you please elaborate on this Italian Flak? There is no core Italian unit in Syracuse. Which Flak can fire in transport mode? thanks.

Indeed you get an Italian 90mm AA gun with Sdkfz.251/1 in, Taranto not Syracuse. Sorry my bad.