Feudal Japan

dithyrambos · Post by **dithyrambos** » Sun May 14, 2006 6:28 pm

This is an area that has not been widely covered by the PC gaming industry. To my knowledge, only three games have attempted to cover this area at all. Shogun: Total War, the first game in the Total War series, was all about this, and did a nice job covering it. Another game I have seen with anything really pertaining to Feudal Japan is Civ III, whose Conquest scenario did a very poor representation of the Sengoku Period. Paradox's Europa Universalis II included Japan, but did the Sengoku Period even worse than Civ III did it.

Shogun is pretty much through with sales, except for the occasional used copy that circulates in and out of stores like EB Games. So this particular area seems perfect for Slitherine to expand into. The Sengoku period would be a great place also, because at this point in Japan's history, the country really did look like Greece did in the time of Spartan, or the Ancient Middle East in the time of CoW, or Italy and Gaul did in the time of Legion. A Sengoku Period game based on the Spartan engine could possibly be a best seller, IMHO.

Dithy

hidde · Post by **hidde** » Tue May 16, 2006 3:28 pm

There's Takeda & Takeda2 by Magitech.
I have the first one. It's fun. Was thinking of buying nr.2 as well but after I had tried the demo I'm not sure.
Give it a look.
http://www.ezgame.com/

dithyrambos · Post by **dithyrambos** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:22 pm

hidde wrote:There's Takeda & Takeda2 by Magitech.
I have the first one. It's fun. Was thinking of buying nr.2 as well but after I had tried the demo I'm not sure.
Give it a look.
http://www.ezgame.com/

Looks nice, but it seems to focus solely on Takeda Shingen. I think Slitherine could make the best Sengoku Period game. Because out of all the ones I've seen, CIV III is the only one where you can play "all" of the factions. But CIV III, as I said in my first post, does not depict the period very well. A Sengoku game based on the Spartan engine could be a best seller, IMHO.

Dithy

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:23 am

well, in fact there already is KOEI's 信長の野望.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobunaga's_Ambition

So, thing could be difficult in Japan domestic market.
But this game's battle system is somewhat different from LegionArena. So there could be fair amounts of chance. I think.

One thing hard to incorporate into game system is 火縄銃. I mean harquebus, matchlock smoothbore rifles.
And there is in fact no cavalry in this era, there are only horse-riding knights(samurai). Japanese horse is relatively small, and
cannot gallop for long distance.

anguille · Post by **anguille** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:29 am

I'd love a japan version of Spartan....

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Sat May 20, 2006 3:06 pm

Here is some pictures of 火縄銃

http://tekuteku.ctv.co.jp/html/misc/2005hinawa/

http://www.mkimpo.com/diary/2005/teppou ... 09-25.html

新宿皆中稲荷
http://maps.google.com/?om=1&ll=35.7004 ... 9,0.009162

http://woodone3831.web.infoseek.co.jp/c ... iro-a.html
http://woodone3831.web.infoseek.co.jp/d ... tiura1.mpg
http://woodone3831.web.infoseek.co.jp/d ... tiura2.mpg

亀城(literally meaning, turtle castle, 亀 is turtle、　城 is castle)
http://maps.google.com/?ll=36.083746,14 ... 2&t=k&om=1

and this is just for fun, famous anime which depicts feudal japan's warfare well's parody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCfqfKT7CjQ

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Sun May 21, 2006 1:46 am

Tora, have you ever read a novel by James Clavell called Shogun? It was published in 1976, being one of Clavell's earlier works. If my memory serves me well, it is a tale of this era of japanese history. It's nominally about a european shipwrecked in Japan, but Yoshi Toranaga is the real hero.

He is also the author of King Rat, (auto-biographical tale of his POW time in WW2)

Tai-Pan, (founding of Hong Kong)

Gai-Jin (europeans in Japan again, but in the 1860's)

and Whirlwind (the Iranian revolution)

Shogun also has that precious and rare quality, a truly great final line. From the mouth of Yoshi Toranaga himself, "In this life, in this world of tears, you need a sense of humor, neh?"

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:25 pm

<shogun

I heard that novel. And I guess it based on real person in that era.
Just before AD1600, holland ship shiprecked off the coast of Japan.
And one of the survivers is William Adams. He met 徳川家康(tokugawa ieyasu)　and become one of his advisors.
Later he married Japanese woman and died in Japan. His tomb exists.

徳川家康 is one of fuedal lord in that era, and he manged to unite Japan, established government at Edo(江戸).

<Gai-Jin
never have heard before, though I guess in 1860s, things could be really hard for foreginers in Japan.
And there are somekind of civil war between daimyos(feudal lords).

dithyrambos · Post by **dithyrambos** » Sun May 21, 2006 7:59 pm

tora_tora_tora wrote:徳川家康 is one of fuedal lord in that era, and he manged to unite Japan, established government at Edo(江戸).

I can't read Japanese. But I assume you're talking about Oda Nobunaga?

EDIT: Nevermind... I just saw that that was the same as Tokugawa's. My bad.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:13 am

tora_tora_tora wrote:<shogun

I heard that novel. And I guess it based on real person in that era.
Just before AD1600, holland ship shiprecked off the coast of Japan.
And one of the survivers is William Adams. He met 徳川家康(tokugawa ieyasu)　and become one of his advisors.
Later he married Japanese woman and died in Japan. His tomb exists.

徳川家康 is one of fuedal lord in that era, and he manged to unite Japan, established government at Edo(江戸).

<Gai-Jin
never have heard before, though I guess in 1860s, things could be really hard for foreginers in Japan.
And there are somekind of civil war between daimyos(feudal lords).

Wow, Tora, I had no idea there was any historical basis to the novel Shogun. So Anjin-san really existed, and there's a tomb to prove it? That is the most interesting little historical tidbit I have come across in a long time, thank you!

Is it Edo that has that giant semi-european-style castle? Or maybe Edo is the castle? Heh, I know more about the history of Japan than the average American, but that's not saying much

I did know that for a century or more the Dutch, (Hollanders, Nederlanders, whatever you want to call them, the guys in wooden shoes), were the only europeans tolerated at all in Japan.

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:52 pm

dithyrambos wrote:
tora_tora_tora wrote:徳川家康 is one of fuedal lord in that era, and he manged to unite Japan, established government at Edo(江戸).
I can't read Japanese. But I assume you're talking about Oda Nobunaga?

Thank you for your interest in Japan's history.
oda nobunaga is 織田信長.　He could be the one to rule Japan, though one of his subordinate warriors killed him.

<Edo
There is huge castle in Tokyo, where 徳川(tokugawa)'s long line of shogun lived. And now Emperor lives in it.
Though it is vast and looks very massive, there are few people think it has european origin.

五稜郭(go ryou kaku) , which is in northern Japan, Hokkaido(北海道)　is heavily influenced by Dutch's field manuals.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=41.79672,140 ... 9&t=k&om=1

江戸城 is like this.
http://maps.google.com/?t=k&om=1&ll=35. ... 5,0.073299
water moat surrounds castle in the center like snail's shell. Most of the casle's defence line, water moats have been landfilled and turned into office bulidings.

dithyrambos · Post by **dithyrambos** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:56 pm

tora_tora_tora wrote:Thank you for your interest in Japan's history.
oda nobunaga is 織田信長.　He could be the one to rule Japan, though one of his subordinate warriors killed him.

Yep, the guy who killed him was known as the "Thirteen Day Shogun" because as soon as Nobunaga's loyal general, Toyetomi Hideyoshi heard the news of Nobunaga's death, he marched on the traitor and killed him after 13 days. I do know some Japanese history, primarily the Sengoku Period, though I do have some slight knowledge of both the Mongol Invasion and the end of the Shogunate.

BTW, thanks for showing me the Japanese spelling of Oda Nobunaga! Can you please seperate the "Oda" from "Nobunaga", I'm interested in seeing which symbols represent which name.

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:03 am

The traitor is akechi mitsuhide(明智　光秀).

oda(織田) nobunaga(信長) is killed at honnnouji(本能寺)、honnnou(本能)ji(寺). ji is temple, buddist temple.

And I guess, 三日天下(three day ruling period), as Hideyoshi returns from western front and sending letters to other fuedal lords to induce them into his camp, and hasty march toward traitor and finish him off.

miura(三浦)　 annjinn(按針)　tsuka(塚)　　tsuka means mound.
http://www.google.co.jp/maphp?hl=en&q=& ... 09892&om=1

as this is in yokosuka(横須賀), maybe, someone in US Navy or US marine guys do know this site, I guess.

durin · Post by **durin** » Mon May 29, 2006 12:35 am

It is what i found the info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akechi_Mitsuhide

Akechi Mitsuhide (明智光秀 Akechi Mitsuhide, October 19, 1528 ??“ July 2, 1582), nicknamed Jubei, was a samurai who lived during the Sengoku period of Feudal Japan. He was a general under Daimyo Oda Nobunaga, although he later betrayed Nobunaga and caused him to commit seppuku.

Born in Mino province (now Gifu prefecture) as a descendant of the shugo Toki clan, Mitsuhide began serving Nobunaga after Nobunaga's conquest of Mino province in 1566 and received Sakamoto (in Omi, 100,000 koku) in 1571. Although Nobunaga rarely put too much trust in his retainers, he particularly trusted Katsuie Shibata, Hideyoshi Hashiba and Mitsuhide Akechi. After Mitsuhide received Sakamoto he moved to pacify the Tamba region by defeating several clans such as the Tango and the Isshiki.

In 1579, he captured Yakami Castle from Hatano Hideharu by promising Hideharu peace terms. This accomplished Mitsuhide's goal although, Nobunaga betrayed the peace agreement and had Hideharu executed. Naturally this did not make the Hatano family happy and a short while later several of Hideharu's retainers murdered Akechi Mitsuhide's mother. The situation was fueled through several public insults Nobunaga had directed at Mitsuhide, that even drew the attention of some Western observers. Mitsuhide blamed Nobunaga for his mother's death and the attack at Honnoji on June 21, 1582 was his revenge.

He has been credited with killing Oda Nobunaga; while Mitsuhide did not execute Nobunaga personally, he did force him to commit seppuku for his betrayal and subsequent murder of Mitsuhide's mother. When they found out about the assassination, both Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu rushed to be the first to avenge Nobunaga and take his place. Hideyoshi got to Mitsuhide first, and Mitsuhide's allies such as Hosokawa Fukitaka, who was related to Mitsuhide through a marriage, betrayed Mitsuhide. Mitsuhide survived for 13 days, until he was defeated by Hideyoshi at the Battle of Yamazaki. Mitsuhide is rumored to have been killed by a peasant warrior with a bamboo spear (some say such an ignominious death was but karmic reward for killing his lord). However, there were also rumors that he was not killed, but rather started a new life as a priest called Tenkai.

His third daughter was Hosokawa Gracia.

The Akechi family was able to trace their heritage to the Toki and from there to the Minamoto

.

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:45 pm

<三日天下
well, in Japanese, 三日(三　is san, which means three, 日　is hi, which means day) and when you read in succession we pronounce mikka,
means for some short period, not literally three days.
So this word means Akechi's ruling period is relatively short.

And thank you for mentioning eng wiki is so rich in Japan's history. I never knew if you did not tell it.

And in this period, around when Oda and Akechi lived, there is a huge change in caslte building style.
Some say it is due to matchlocked smoothbore rifles, some say fuedal lord's army structure got changed.
And as Japanese castle in this era were mostly build on hills and ridge and made of extensive earthworks, it is relatively easy to construct ones.

Well, there are some bi-monthly magazine which deals a lot in this era.
http://www.gakken.co.jp/rekigun/

戦国の堅城(senngoku no kenjyou, senngoku means war era, word for word, kenjyou means formidable castle)
contains lots of ilustrations, so even if you cannot read Japanese, I guess you can enjoy watching these visual books.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4056 ... 98-1510313
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/4056 ... 98-1510313

and here is good drawing of what typical castles look like.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ju8t-hnm/Fuukei/index.htm
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ju8t-hnm/Sh ... Zu/Zu3.jpg

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:34 pm

Way off-topic, and apologies, but...

I had to laugh when I saw that Amazon Japan page had a whole section devoted to Harry Potter.

I see even the japanese are not immune to worthless trash "literature"

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:55 am

<Harry Potter

The fifth volume is on sale since May 17th. That's the reason they have special section for Harry Potters.

I guess people remind of their school days reading Harry Potter's adventures.
And as its English is fairly easy to read for foreigners like me, I also read it.
Though it seems the third of the series is its sales peek in Japan, it seems.

Anyway, here in Japan, one of the genre which often molded into game is "school days", school life, life as a high school student.

most famous game in this genre is tokimeki memorial.

http://www.tcp.com/~prisoner/tokimemo/

In fact, in 2006, they make this game title online game, "tokimeki memorial online".

http://www.tokimemo-online.konami.jp/

They have 7 servers running lately.

<Japanese castle
so, this kind of earh and mound on ridge line is something you've never expected? Stone walls and towering Tensyu(天守) is what people want to see?

off the topic

gedo senki
http://www.ghibli.jp/26trailer/

guineawolf · Post by **guineawolf** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:08 pm

but the japanese "spartan"would have no shields.......

sum1won · Post by **sum1won** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:04 pm

You know, I never understood why the shield doesn't seem to appear in ancient japanese warfare- pavises, occasionally, but not traditional shields.

tora_tora_tora · Post by **tora_tora_tora** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:24 am

sum1won wrote:You know, I never understood why the shield doesn't seem to appear in ancient japanese warfare- pavises, occasionally, but not traditional shields.

That is because, Their main weapon is war bow, and their armor(yoroi、　鎧) is already heavy for wearer and horse.
In fact 大鎧(oo yoroi, literal meaning, huge armor, big armor, great armor)'s shoulder guard is as huge as normal shields.

Anyway, around the age of the first samurai, and around the first part of 鎌倉(kamakura) period, archery arts is really important for warriors,
especially riding archery.

You can see its tradition here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEleuKS9TN0

Sorry to take such a long time in responding your question, I am indulged into somewhere else on the net.

Feudal Japan

Feudal Japan

Thank you for your information