Early 30 Year Swedes...

[BeansNFranks]

Have yet to play yet, but I've been a painting fool. Kind of not sure what an overall composition should be, so this is my first shot at it:

I am not sure if the Finn's are vital, but when with the better armoured German Cuirassiers instead. That allowed me to get another unit of Commanded shot, which doesn't seem to appear in many lists.

Anyone with some games under their belt offer some advice on composition?

TROOP TYPE ARMOUR QUALITY SHOOTING IMPACT MELEE #
Great Commander
Troop Commander
Troop Commander



Swedish Cavalry Dho Armoured Superior Pistol Pistol 4
German Cuirassiers Horse H Armoured Superior Pistol Pistol 4
Merc karbinryttare Horse Armoured Superior Carbine Pistol 4
Commanded Shot MF Un Average Salvo Salvo
Commanded Shot MF Un Average Salvo Salvo


Yellow Brigade MF Un Superior Salvo Salvo 4
HF Armoured Superior Pike Pike 3
Regimental Gun

Red Brigade MF Un Superior Salvo Salvo 4
HF Armoured Superior Pike Pike 3
Regimental Gun

Blue Brigade MF Un Superior Salvo Salvo 4
HF Armoured Superior Pike Pike 3
Regimental Gun

Black Brigade MF Un Superior Salvo Salvo 4
HF Armoured Superior Pike Pike 3
Regimental Gun


Medium Artillery 2
Medium Artillery 2

[david53]

Hi There

Just a few points

Drop the GC to FC add another TC Generals are always good

Remember foot in FOG are can have rear support without the risk of them getting burst through as muh as happens in FOG AM.

Also you move by Divisions so what to do with your foot keep 3 BGs superior for your front frant along with regimental guns.

Drop two foot BG's to average without regimental guns, these two when placed behind the swedes will give them a plus one along with your FC and the superior bit you should be okey against cannons.

In FOG R I have found you need to plan your army around a plan swamp enemy with your foot or take their cavalry out, with the Swedes use your foot

Your Merc karbinryttare Horse Armoured can only be average not superior I would drop them there are way to difficult to use I had 2 BG at Britcon to me a waste of points.

I would drop the German Cuirassiers and take one extra BG of Swedish Cavalry Dho Armoured Superior.

For the Swedes two Batteries are too much you'll be advancing to contact quick leaving them behind take one if you want.

Take the max you can of Dragoons they are so good in this game.

Now this is just me I would'nt take commanded shot they have there uses but they stop you advancing for the 3rd go and to be honest Sedish Cavalry is there to keep the flanks of the foot safe and not charge away.

Now so thats

3 BGs Superior foot each with regimental gun
2 BG average foot no gun
2 BG Determined Superior Horse
2 BG of 3 base Dragoons
1 Battery Medium foot
any spare points add extra BG foot

Mind this is just my idea after playing one compition so I'm sure other people will have their own idea.

Dave

[timmy1]

One competition in a weekend where in his 2nd and 4th ever games he rolled over Early 30YW Swedes twice, I might add.

[Blathergut]

Take the max you can of Dragoons they are so good in this game.

What's so good about them???

[Scrumpy]

Cheap battlegroup ?

[rbodleyscott]

Take the max you can of Dragoons they are so good in this game.

What's so good about them???

Cheap battlegroup ?

That can shoot the enemy up and avoid things it doesn't like. Gets 1 shooting dice per base, unlike LH and LF.

What is not to like?

[Scrumpy]

Don't they suffer if they are in 2s or 3s though ?

[Blathergut]

I did notice (the rules finally got here) they could evade...so that will be interesting to see how they do...seemed like they'd be able to turn back around easily as well after evading...so I will try a 3 or maybe 4 base BG in our first games here and see how they do...I don't think Dead. has any of them painted up so ehehehe...

[timmy1]

Dragoons, either use them in 4s or if you are restricted, 2s. Dragoons in 3s really become a target and I would say are no better than in 2s. In 4s they are the most cost effective troops in the game.

[rbodleyscott]

Don't they suffer if they are in 2s or 3s though ?

They do.

[BeansNFranks]

Hi There

Just a few points

Drop the GC to FC add another TC Generals are always good

Remember foot in FOG are can have rear support without the risk of them getting burst through as muh as happens in FOG AM.

Also you move by Divisions so what to do with your foot keep 3 BGs superior for your front frant along with regimental guns.

Drop two foot BG's to average without regimental guns, these two when placed behind the swedes will give them a plus one along with your FC and the superior bit you should be okey against cannons.

In FOG R I have found you need to plan your army around a plan swamp enemy with your foot or take their cavalry out, with the Swedes use your foot

Your Merc karbinryttare Horse Armoured can only be average not superior I would drop them there are way to difficult to use I had 2 BG at Britcon to me a waste of points.

I would drop the German Cuirassiers and take one extra BG of Swedish Cavalry Dho Armoured Superior.

For the Swedes two Batteries are too much you'll be advancing to contact quick leaving them behind take one if you want.

Take the max you can of Dragoons they are so good in this game.

Now this is just me I would'nt take commanded shot they have there uses but they stop you advancing for the 3rd go and to be honest Sedish Cavalry is there to keep the flanks of the foot safe and not charge away.

Now so thats

3 BGs Superior foot each with regimental gun
2 BG average foot no gun
2 BG Determined Superior Horse
2 BG of 3 base Dragoons
1 Battery Medium foot
any spare points add extra BG foot

Mind this is just my idea after playing one compition so I'm sure other people will have their own idea.

Dave

I just can't find it in myself to make Gusty a lowly FC. It would make the dice g*ds unhappy.

So I should not take commanded shot? I was trying to be historical with the list as much as possible within the points allowed.

[david53]

Hi There

Just a few points

Drop the GC to FC add another TC Generals are always good

Remember foot in FOG are can have rear support without the risk of them getting burst through as muh as happens in FOG AM.

Also you move by Divisions so what to do with your foot keep 3 BGs superior for your front frant along with regimental guns.

Drop two foot BG's to average without regimental guns, these two when placed behind the swedes will give them a plus one along with your FC and the superior bit you should be okey against cannons.

In FOG R I have found you need to plan your army around a plan swamp enemy with your foot or take their cavalry out, with the Swedes use your foot

Your Merc karbinryttare Horse Armoured can only be average not superior I would drop them there are way to difficult to use I had 2 BG at Britcon to me a waste of points.

I would drop the German Cuirassiers and take one extra BG of Swedish Cavalry Dho Armoured Superior.

For the Swedes two Batteries are too much you'll be advancing to contact quick leaving them behind take one if you want.

Take the max you can of Dragoons they are so good in this game.

Now this is just me I would'nt take commanded shot they have there uses but they stop you advancing for the 3rd go and to be honest Sedish Cavalry is there to keep the flanks of the foot safe and not charge away.

Now so thats

3 BGs Superior foot each with regimental gun
2 BG average foot no gun
2 BG Determined Superior Horse
2 BG of 3 base Dragoons
1 Battery Medium foot
any spare points add extra BG foot

Mind this is just my idea after playing one compition so I'm sure other people will have their own idea.

Dave

I just can't find it in myself to make Gusty a lowly FC. It would make the dice g*ds unhappy.

So I should not take commanded shot? I was trying to be historical with the list as much as possible within the points allowed.

Feel free as i said thats just my idea. I am sure there were times the swedes did'nt have commanded shot but once again if you want to take them no trouble.

As you say don't want to make the big dice people unhappy.

[donkiesrus2003]

I would take the commanded shot, as David said the Swedish cavalry is flank protection for the foot.

Commanded shot with the cavalry make them harder to break down.

My brother refuses to fight against the Swedes if I put my commanded shot in with the cavalry.

His POV as the German Catholic is can't win against foot but can beat the cavalry wings then destroy the centre as the German cavalry is better.

However with the commanded shot his cavalry superiority is lost.

[timmy1]

Don, that is true to a point. My experience is that unless the Swedes have a mix of Shooty Horse, Determined Horse and the Commanded Shot on a flank, the Catholics just stand off and shoot at the Determined Horse. They will do more damange than the Salvo armed Commanded Shot at long range. If the German Catholic mounted evade, the Command Shot have about a 1 in 12 chance of being in a position to give and receive Protection after the VMD role. Then the Kuerassiere and Reiters generally win against the Swedish Mounted wings and turn in on the Salvo armed brigades. I have tried it as Swedes with both Average and Superior Determined Horse, against 4 different German Catholic compositions and I fancy it from Tilly's side.

Tell your brother not to give up - it can be done. Oh and the Tercios can beat the Swedish Brigades, either by the Tercios being mixed with Artillery or by the mounted getting on their flanks. Dave and Mick did the former to me at Britcon, and Alisdair and Dave did the latter.

[DanielS]

Seems very odd that mounted horse with carbine and pistol are able to outshoot musketeers particularly as salvo fire was developed for the very purpose of shooting apart cavalry at the ranges in question. And given tremendous punishment that salvo firing Swedes dealt out both as casulties and in the impact on the morale on charging Polish hussars and Imperial cuirassiers alike any unit standing in front of the Swedes to perform a caracole would be blown apart. Using the caracole against musketeers was a losing proposition even if the musketeers fired by rank. That's why the cavalry manuals of the period such as Wallhausen called for Horse to charge the muskteers and only do the caracole aginst unsupported pikemen.
And there was of course nothing which prevented the Swedes from not using salvo fire, Monro in fact only mentions salvos as something to be used before charging the enemy or against Horse, the rest of the the time the firing was done by rank.
On top of that Swedish "salvo fire" was actually 3 diffrent firing systems, two which involved firing by platoons, and one which had the entire unit fire at once.

[BeansNFranks]

Seems very odd that mounted horse with carbine and pistol are able to outshoot musketeers particularly as salvo fire was developed for the very purpose of shooting apart cavalry at the ranges in question. And given tremendous punishment that salvo firing Swedes dealt out both as casulties and in the impact on the morale on charging Polish hussars and Imperial cuirassiers alike any unit standing in front of the Swedes to perform a caracole would be blown apart. Using the caracole against musketeers was a losing proposition even if the musketeers fired by rank. That's why the cavalry manuals of the period such as Wallhausen called for Horse to charge the muskteers and only do the caracole aginst unsupported pikemen.
And there was of course nothing which prevented the Swedes from not using salvo fire, Monro in fact only mentions salvos as something to be used before charging the enemy or against Horse, the rest of the the time the firing was done by rank.
On top of that Swedish "salvo fire" was actually 3 diffrent firing systems, two which involved firing by platoons, and one which had the entire unit fire at once.

It looks like the biggest effect of the salvo capability was worked out as an impact thing. No clue if that jives with history or not as I really just started reading up on this era of warfare

[nikgaukroger]

Seems very odd that mounted horse with carbine and pistol are able to outshoot musketeers

Tim's post has a number of odd inaccuracies - for example carbine armed horse cannot outshoot musketeers at long range because the carbine shooting range isn't that long Also other than the Crabats none of the Catholic mounted can evade

[timmy1]

Nik

Maybe it was Dragoons at long range and Carabats at short range that were outshooting the Salvo. Both of them in 4 base BG get more dice than a 2 base BG of Salvo (IIRC), which is what the Swedish Command Shot are.

Maybe we played the evade rules incorrectly at Britcon.

That does change it a little. I will try it again.

Regards
Tim

[david53]

Maybe we played the evade rules incorrectly at Britcon.

That does change it a little. I will try it again.

Regards
Tim

I never evaded did'nt have troops that could.

[timmy1]

Must be my memory going.