Game Balance

[philqw78]

in part it will depend what the objective of v2 is. Is it to improve the lives of the current group of active players, or win back the interest of those who have bought the book but then failed to warm to the rules as currently written.

The former may be easier to do with a couple of small tweaks, but how many copies of v2 would be sold is the question. The latter could require more fundamental surgery - but with a bigger sales volume for Osprey & Slitherine were it to work.

Or another schism a la WRG 6th/7th, DBM/MM

[Strategos69]

in part it will depend what the objective of v2 is. Is it to improve the lives of the current group of active players, or win back the interest of those who have bought the book but then failed to warm to the rules as currently written.

The former may be easier to do with a couple of small tweaks, but how many copies of v2 would be sold is the question. The latter could require more fundamental surgery - but with a bigger sales volume for Osprey & Slitherine were it to work.

You raise a very important point and it would be nice to focus the discusions to know what are the boundaries. Are the changes intended to produce games much more fair, unused lists more common in tournaments or to improve the historicity of the results? I have seen many discussion where new rules were proposed just to avoid facing the fact that some army books need changes (and for the players that already own all of them it seems to be a paniful decision, which I completely understand). Indeed some new rules are proposed so that the army books do not have to be changed and that is also a problem.

I would take a look at how the guys in Battlefront do it. When they moved to the new edition, they reedited all their books, enlarging them with more materials, like painting tips, hard cover, more pictures, further explanations, etc.

[philqw78]

I would take a look at how the guys in Battlefront do it. When they moved to the new edition, they reedited all their books, enlarging them with more materials, like painting tips, hard cover, more pictures, further explanations, etc.

That would be good. I could buy the same troops at different points costs, depending which book they came from. Thats how Battlefront do it.

[bahdahbum]

That sounds awfully commercial . Battlefront at least used the excuse they wanted to be more historical and so wanted to organise the units more historically . So people have to rebase some units, reorganise it all and buy new miniatures, new books and use new rules, ... that's why I stopped playing it 2 years ago . At leats they had dowloadable army lists .

Slitherine should perhaps consider, with osprey, the possibility to sell the rules V2 and modified army lists that way, dowloadable . Anyway, you can find all the books downloadable here and there ( with the risks linked to those sites , but is hat a real problem for some people) .

And many people prefer to have the "real thing" in their hands .

If people want a complete overhaul, you risk killing the game . But I am sure small changes and if need be a change in some lists ( barbarians, nikephorian byzantines - oups why did I say that - some medieval armies ..) then publish them downloadable and everybody will be happy. Everybody wins .

Many people now play Impetus ( a kind of big BDA ) or Art de la Guerre ( a kind of mixed DBM-FOG ) . I do not think they will change so easely . They think FOG to difficult , to long to play . They want games that last two hours and a half, which is possible with 600 points . So they revert to : it's too complicated

So the question remains : what's the real objective . Rework the rules to simplify the useless complicated things and small problems or to try to gain more players

Many good proposals have been made, many useless ones too . But many people help and that's positive.

[waldo]

That sounds awfully commercial . Battlefront at least used the excuse they wanted to be more historical and so wanted to organise the units more historically . So people have to rebase some units, reorganise it all and buy new miniatures, new books and use new rules, ... that's why I stopped playing it 2 years ago . At leats they had dowloadable army lists .

Slitherine should perhaps consider, with osprey, the possibility to sell the rules V2 and modified army lists that way, dowloadable . Anyway, you can find all the books downloadable here and there ( with the risks linked to those sites , but is hat a real problem for some people) .

And many people prefer to have the "real thing" in their hands .

If people want a complete overhaul, you risk killing the game . But I am sure small changes and if need be a change in some lists ( barbarians, nikephorian byzantines - oups why did I say that - some medieval armies ..) then publish them downloadable and everybody will be happy. Everybody wins .

Many people now play Impetus ( a kind of big BDA ) or Art de la Guerre ( a kind of mixed DBM-FOG ) . I do not think they will change so easely . They think FOG to difficult , to long to play . They want games that last two hours and a half, which is possible with 600 points . So they revert to : it's too complicated

So the question remains : what's the real objective . Rework the rules to simplify the useless complicated things and small problems or to try to gain more players

Many good proposals have been made, many useless ones too . But many people help and that's positive.

Some people (those adults who think Harry Potter is literature) will never be happy with a game that requires a modicum of thought in lieu of d6 rolling – and FoG has enough of that already. Changing the game to appeal to those players is not necessarily a wise thing. Trying to be all things to all players is never going to work.

I’m sure when Phil Barker took the plunge on 7th edition he didn’t think he would end up where he is now…

Walter

[Strategos69]

I think I have not been understood. I wasn't proposing turning FoG into FoW. When I read the army list books for the first time, I was a little disappointed. I expected something more than just... lists. It is true that they are far better than in DBM, but however they are just... lists! Osprey has a lot more to offer, picking from here and there. And as madaxeman pointed out, if you change the lists but the product you are going to offer will be only the same set of "corrected" lists, as for the rulebook (minor revision as errata), I would really sit down to think if it is worth having two identical books. Battlefront have managed to make from a historical game a very succesful one, which is not easy. As for Warhammer people keep buying the army lists even if you have the incoherences that phil commented (normally anyway when dealing with several editions of books).

So, in short, as madaxeman pointed out, careful thought has to be put into what is going to be done and the intentions of v2. In my opinion a deep revision could be nice (especially for getting some historical interactions working better). If changes are planned that way, I would take a look at how they do in Battlefront. For example, the new lists could be a groupping of several books, hard cover, more miniatures on them, some painting tips and further historical explanations. And as a large community of players, you can look for help among players. For example, in Impetus the creator offers players who have painted miniatures of some periods to send their pictures and if they are selected they will be put on the army list books and they will be credited for that.

PS: In these days of unstoppable exchange of data, offering the lists for free (and even the rulebook) can be a good deal if you offer something more on the books you sell than the downdable ones. After all, printing a book is more expensive than buying it. This is what Corvus Belli has done and their books are sold quite well. Selling the miniatures also helps, for sure.

[AlanYork]

That sounds awfully commercial . Battlefront at least used the excuse they wanted to be more historical and so wanted to organise the units more historically . So people have to rebase some units, reorganise it all and buy new miniatures, new books and use new rules, ... that's why I stopped playing it 2 years ago . At leats they had dowloadable army lists .

Slitherine should perhaps consider, with osprey, the possibility to sell the rules V2 and modified army lists that way, dowloadable . Anyway, you can find all the books downloadable here and there ( with the risks linked to those sites , but is hat a real problem for some people) .

And many people prefer to have the "real thing" in their hands .

If people want a complete overhaul, you risk killing the game . But I am sure small changes and if need be a change in some lists ( barbarians, nikephorian byzantines - oups why did I say that - some medieval armies ..) then publish them downloadable and everybody will be happy. Everybody wins .

Many people now play Impetus ( a kind of big BDA ) or Art de la Guerre ( a kind of mixed DBM-FOG ) . I do not think they will change so easely . They think FOG to difficult , to long to play . They want games that last two hours and a half, which is possible with 600 points . So they revert to : it's too complicated

So the question remains : what's the real objective . Rework the rules to simplify the useless complicated things and small problems or to try to gain more players

Many good proposals have been made, many useless ones too . But many people help and that's positive.

Some people (those adults who think Harry Potter is literature) will never be happy with a game that requires a modicum of thought in lieu of d6 rolling – and FoG has enough of that already. Changing the game to appeal to those players is not necessarily a wise thing. Trying to be all things to all players is never going to work.

I’m sure when Phil Barker took the plunge on 7th edition he didn’t think he would end up where he is now…

Walter

True. But people don't want a game where working out multiple complex combats file by file over and over again gives them a headache after a long day at work either.

If there are any amendments of rules for V2 I'd go for what DBM did at the end and post them online. I can only speak for myself but after shelling out nearly £200 on a set of rules and lists that a lot of gamers in my area have lost interest in there isn't a cat in hell's chance of me spending any more on the system. If I might be so bold I would suggest that I'm not alone in feeling that.

[Polkovnik]

If there is any amendments of rules for V2 I'd go for what DBM did at the end and post them online.

And that was then a big problem because it wasn't ever possible to buy the latest version of the rules.

I can only speak for myself but after shelling out nearly £200 on a set of rules and lists that a lot of gamers in my area have lost interest in there isn't a cat in hell's chance of me spending any more on the system. If I might be so bold I would suggest that I'm not alone in feeling that.

I think most people who play regularly will buy the new book, if it's just an amended rulebook and does not reqire the purchase of new army list books.

[AlanYork]

If there is any amendments of rules for V2 I'd go for what DBM did at the end and post them online.

And that was then a big problem because it wasn't ever possible to buy the latest version of the rules.

I can only speak for myself but after shelling out nearly £200 on a set of rules and lists that a lot of gamers in my area have lost interest in there isn't a cat in hell's chance of me spending any more on the system. If I might be so bold I would suggest that I'm not alone in feeling that.

I think most people who play regularly will buy the new book, if it's just an amended rulebook and does not reqire the purchase of new army list books.

Wasn't there a sheet of amendments that was published online that attempted to fix the "super skirmisher" and clarified supporting ranks among other things? I used to keep it at the back of my DBM book.

A new rulebook may sell well though I have my doubts in the current economic climate. I don't think new lists will. I believe that outside of the hard core of regular players a fair number of people have lost interest and producing new lists will turn off even more people who don't want to buy them...."I have to pay out AGAIN? Oh forget it....".

Later on I think you will have folks who stuck with it for a while but will lose interest eventually as they don't have "the latest kit". A divided gaming community eventually dwindles away.

That's my view anyway.

[philqw78]

The gaming community has always been divided.

[bahdahbum]

PS: In these days of unstoppable exchange of data, offering the lists for free (and even the rulebook) can be a good deal if you offer something more on the books you sell than the downdable ones. After all, printing a book is more expensive than buying it. This is what Corvus Belli has done and their books are sold quite well. Selling the miniatures also helps, for sure

What's your idea . I am not sure I understand


And yes Phil, we will always be divided, otherwise, why would there be some forums

[grahambriggs]

PS: In these days of unstoppable exchange of data, offering the lists for free (and even the rulebook) can be a good deal if you offer something more on the books you sell than the downdable ones. After all, printing a book is more expensive than buying it. This is what Corvus Belli has done and their books are sold quite well. Selling the miniatures also helps, for sure

What's your idea . I am not sure I understand


And yes Phil, we will always be divided, otherwise, why would there be some forums

There is no unstoppable exchange of data. FOG is not available legally in electronic form. Anyone doing it illegally would be sued. Printing a book is not more expensive than the price charged for it unless you are using the book as a loss leader, which Slitherine are not doing.

[lawrenceg]

PS: In these days of unstoppable exchange of data, offering the lists for free (and even the rulebook) can be a good deal if you offer something more on the books you sell than the downdable ones. After all, printing a book is more expensive than buying it. This is what Corvus Belli has done and their books are sold quite well. Selling the miniatures also helps, for sure

What's your idea . I am not sure I understand


And yes Phil, we will always be divided, otherwise, why would there be some forums

There is no unstoppable exchange of data. FOG is not available legally in electronic form. Anyone doing it illegally would be sued. Printing a book is not more expensive than the price charged for it unless you are using the book as a loss leader, which Slitherine are not doing.

I think he might mean downloading and printing it on your inkjet is more expensive than buying a hard copy book.

[bahdahbum]

Now I understand better

[Strategos69]

Sorry for my bad English. That is what I meant: printing a colourful book is more expensive than buying it and you get less quality. In my opinion, the ratio quality price of the FoG book is very good.

Regarding Graham's comment, the question of legality depends on the country. In my country it is legal to make copies of the things you own for your personal use without harming the rights of the publisher. What is not legal is distributing them in any form to harm the publishers or make profit of it. If we go to the letter of the rule, it might be concevable to sue the guys who post pictures of battle reports where you can see the book opened, as the publishers could understand their rights are harmed. In any case, it would be up to the judge to determine the harm made to the publishers and the jurisprudence at least here is more in favour of the spread of knowledge.

By the way, I am not encouraging copying the FoG book in any means, I am not myself doing it and certainly I appreciate my copy so much that I would not lend it for these purposes. But what I see as unstoppable (no government in my country has ever been able to make any progress regarding that) is the exchange of information between peers. Corvus Belli, instead of having a policy of sueing all the ones damaging their rights, decided to give the ruleset and the lists for free. And, indeed, people have run to buy the first, second edition and the supplement they sold even if they could get some of them for free.

To summarize, my point is that it seems wiser to me making the amendments necessary to both lists and ruleset, provide the lists for free for the users (plain text, just lists) and sell along the v2 of FoG (as deep revised as necessary) new books, including those lists, like wargaming in Ancient times, Middle Ages, etc. where you have not only the FoG players as target, but also other potential buyers.

[robertthebruce]

Guys, if you are thinking about turn FOG into a light game that could be played in a couple of hours, I will jump into Ancient Empires I´m afraid.

I wan´t to put a few soldiers on the table and shout out: Look at me, I´m playing a historical game, I´m a clever guy!!!

I want to get a game that could simulate a battle and give me some interesting tacticals troubles, not a children game.


I´m not sure that Slitherine and the FOG team are willing to rewrite 13 army books, from my view it is unnecessary.


In fact, I was hurt a lot when I was replaced as head of the historical games section in my old club by a guy of 23 years who thinks that Julius Caesar is the Inter of Milan Goalkeeper.

Please don´t do the same with FOG.


And Strategos69, the wargamers in our Country want´s all free, if you sell something you are the devil who only wants money, in my opinion all these guys should go to the hell.

[bahdahbum]

Hy Robert The Bruce , mighty warrior

I do not want a "too" simple game, but also want to avoid unnecessary complicated rules . In every rule - and I read many of them since 1974 - , there is something you can critizise, discuss and better , improve .

IMO, FOG can be improved but it should be done as simply as possible because in the whole, the system works . It is not perfect but NON system is perfect and if you change something, even slightly, some people will agree, some will not .

I "fight" for my ideras and bow to the ruling of the majority because the rule will be the same for everyone .

Concerning army lists , I am cnvinved that some lists need to be reviewed - after a FOG 2.0 comes out - . I would suggest a dowloadable list . Osprey will still earn money, customers will be happy and anoying people such as me also .

[robertthebruce]

Hy Robert The Bruce , mighty warrior

I do not want a "too" simple game, but also want to avoid unnecessary complicated rules . In every rule - and I read many of them since 1974 - , there is something you can critizise, discuss and better , improve .

IMO, FOG can be improved but it should be done as simply as possible because in the whole, the system works . It is not perfect but NON system is perfect and if you change something, even slightly, some people will agree, some will not .

I "fight" for my ideras and bow to the ruling of the majority because the rule will be the same for everyone .

Concerning army lists , I am cnvinved that some lists need to be reviewed - after a FOG 2.0 comes out - . I would suggest a dowloadable list . Osprey will still earn money, customers will be happy and anoying people such as me also .

I agree, but I think that the lists should be reviewed after the new version were finished, and only a few list needs review. Maybe the army lists team could make a Black list with the armies that should be reviewed, but we need to know the changes in the rules before.

[Rekila]

Some lists have already been corrected via Errata. Something similar could be done if only a few changes were necessary. And I strongly feel that way.

[bahdahbum]

I did propose it for the Nikephorian army but without succes . Changes were vital ( IMO ) , but easy . But that can be discussed latter , when V2 is in our hands