RC2 thoughts

[dave123]

This game has really improved. Nerfing AA units and artillery, helping tac air some, the better defined objectives, etc. It's almost like you guys are listening to us

I'm playing the campaign again and it is much more enjoyable.

I do think that core units and aux units are still to subtle in their difference, but at least I can figure it out now.

I still have issues with unit balance:

The Hurricane II was really more of a TAC air, I can accept it as a fighter, but NO way it should have an air attack better than spitfires and the like!

The Hurricane I is also overrated. Even during the Battle of Britain in 1940, the British sent the Hurricanes against the Bombers and the Spitfires against the BF109's.

The P51D is way underrated. I mean, how in the world can a P38, Hurricane, etc. have a higher air attack than this superb fighter? That's not even to mention the P47, with a rating of 27?????

I can't believe that the Ju87B has a hard attack of 4 seems low.

The Matilda 2 is just about indestructible. In the invasion of England, I had one hold out against half my German army. I know the German tanks should have trouble with them, but I think they should be more fragile against my Tac air.

The Ta152 is under priced and underrated vs the FW190D9 that it was an improvement upon.

BF109K should have more fuel.

the Jadgpanther and the Jadgtiger should be better than the Elefant. The Elefant was a mechanical disaster, considered a failure. The speed of the Elfant should be 3.

Another failure, the He162, did not have a tail like the graphic in the game.

But these are minor quibbles, actually, the only one that drives me crazy is the Hurricane II, and perhaps the P47.

Great job on the changes!

[wyldman68]

The P51D is way underrated. I mean, how in the world can a P38, Hurricane, etc. have a higher air attack than this superb fighter? That's not even to mention the P47, with a rating of 27?????


The Matilda 2 is just about indestructible. In the invasion of England, I had one hold out against half my German army. I know the German tanks should have trouble with them, but I think they should be more fragile against my Tac air.

I will handle 2 of problems.

The P47, the top Aces in Europe for the US flew P47s, yes 8 50cal machine guns devastated other planes. P51 only had 6 machine guns, yes longer range and better dogfighter. Also, people want to think of dogfighting as the way they fought aerial combat in WW2, Hollywood likes the drama. Sorry to break the news to you the P47 was faster and less maneuverable and would do a zoom and boom attack with its 8 50 cals and then fly away, come back and do the same thing to the German planes. Spitfires and P51 were dogfighters, the P47 was a plane killer. FYI how do you think the Brits in North Africa took out the best maneuvering plane of WW2, the Italian CR42 biplane, Zoom and Boom.

The Matilda 2 is nothing to worry about, use Strategic Bombers and then use 2 or 3 Panzer III G or F and problem solved. Wiped 1 out in my last Sealion in 1 turn. Use those Ju88A and the suppression alone weakens tanks, Infantry and kills boats.

[uran21]

This game has really improved. Nerfing AA units and artillery, helping tac air some, the better defined objectives, etc. It's almost like you guys are listening to us

I'm playing the campaign again and it is much more enjoyable.

I do think that core units and aux units are still to subtle in their difference, but at least I can figure it out now.

I still have issues with unit balance:

The Hurricane II was really more of a TAC air, I can accept it as a fighter, but NO way it should have an air attack better than spitfires and the like!

The Hurricane I is also overrated. Even during the Battle of Britain in 1940, the British sent the Hurricanes against the Bombers and the Spitfires against the BF109's.

The P51D is way underrated. I mean, how in the world can a P38, Hurricane, etc. have a higher air attack than this superb fighter? That's not even to mention the P47, with a rating of 27?????

I can't believe that the Ju87B has a hard attack of 4 seems low.

The Matilda 2 is just about indestructible. In the invasion of England, I had one hold out against half my German army. I know the German tanks should have trouble with them, but I think they should be more fragile against my Tac air.

The Ta152 is under priced and underrated vs the FW190D9 that it was an improvement upon.

BF109K should have more fuel.

the Jadgpanther and the Jadgtiger should be better than the Elefant. The Elefant was a mechanical disaster, considered a failure. The speed of the Elfant should be 3.

Another failure, the He162, did not have a tail like the graphic in the game.

But these are minor quibbles, actually, the only one that drives me crazy is the Hurricane II, and perhaps the P47.

Great job on the changes!

Confronting Spit II and Spit V against Hur II all I see is they are better than Hur II. Confronting Hur I against Bf 109e I also see 109 is better than Hur. AA is not everything to determine the combat, initiative and defense also play the role.

During Battle of Britain 60% of RAF fighters were Hurricanes, it was a tru workinghorse of RAF that was not properly respected because it was overshadowed by Spit. It wasn't better than 109 and stats in game are showing it.

To expand lifetime of Hurricane autocanons were fited on it. The one listed as fighters we have is Mk.IIC armed with 4x20mm cannons. Hurribomber was Mk.IID, we have it under bombers and was armed with 2x40mm canons.


Real significance of Mustang was in its range. Now Allies had weapon to escort bombers above Germany and it saved many Allied bombers and lives so it got famous because of it. It doesn't mean other fighters were not good enough in one on one comparition with it.

About how live debate about P-51 vs P-47 is I provide two links.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/p47.htm

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... ain/31094/

Tac bombers should be usefull against towed weapons and transports and somehow against tanks but we were streaming in direction not to make it universal super killer. Its hard attack in early years is quite sufficient against some vehicles not so impressive against others. No universal rule here. Depends on armour of tank/vehicle.

Can you provide any image on tail of He 162 and graphics in the game?

[Iscaran]

I have to agree that the P51s are underrated or P47 overrated.

The better armament with 8 cannons was a factor but not the only one to consider. For anti aircraft fighting the most important factor was the ability to turn and the ability to increase speed.

Whilst the P47 had the stronger engines the P51 was much better power related to its overall weight. It allowed for harsher turning maneouvers, albeit not for as sturdy dives as the P47.

Compare rate of climb P51H vs P47N vs FW190d9

16.8 m/s vs 15.9 ms/s vs 21.3 m/s (1280m/min)

Also the max speed of the P51 was higher than that of FW190d9 which was nearly equal to P47. Therefore I think the P51 is underrated in some respects atm.

Then the armament argument, yes 8 cannons are better in terms of total armament....but compared with the only 4 cannons of the FW190 the pure number of canons does not imply anything about their firepower.

Compare quad gun 20mm flak vs. one single 88mm gun.

So, IMO. The P47 should have lower initiative than P51 and FW190d. Slightly higher AA, and higher AD values then P51. Cost should around the same to my knowledge as of both types 15.000+ planes have been built during WWII.

Also both planes likely need to be place below a FW190d9 or around its stats. The british were outnumbering the FW190s with Spitfires by 3:1 in end of 1942.

IMO, the P47 definitely needs to have the better AD of those two planes as it could take quite a lot of hits due to its much more "massive" construction.

Just my thoughts on this.

[uran21]

Compare quad gun 20mm flak vs. one single 88mm gun.

Probably you would love to have quad if aircraft is strafing at you. Really various roles of various equipment is hard to impossible to fully represent in the game. All late German fighters, for example, were rebalanced with upgrade path on mind more than anything else. And in sector of fighters altitudes is a factor not considered in this game as a starter to more difficulty in determing stats for aircraft.


You have a point about initiative to be better for P-51 (it was mentioned before but with overhaul on other stats as well that I didn't find valid). Defense values is something that I heavily used in arbitrary way to achieve certain predictions desired so not really something that can be looked for comparition in reality. I should take a look at it more in case of P-47 vs P-51 comparison (H version is way out in this IIRC).


Cost on the other hand should reflect value in the game.

[uran21]

Yes, and about placing both P-51 and P-47 below Fw190D-9... It is not good for the gameplay. We have German fighters better than that one so we need counterpart to some degree. We still have Meteor vs M262 thread open for discussing direction on prediction differences. Fighter stats are hardest of all.

[Iscaran]

Definitely rethink your P47 and P51 values please.

Also the Bf109k is I think a tad too low on AA. Only AA=14 ? Perhaps more 16 or 18 ? Its comparable to a P47/P51 in terms of flying performance (climbing rate, acceleration, speed etc.) and a tad weaker than FW190s.

[uran21]

Definitely rethink your P47 and P51 values please.

Also the Bf109k is I think a tad too low on AA. Only AA=14 ? Perhaps more 16 or 18 ? Its comparable to a P47/P51 in terms of flying performance (climbing rate, acceleration, speed etc.) and a tad weaker than FW190s.

Regarding Bf 109K I ask myself for some time now who actually use it considering its date of availability and other options at that time. Its only advantage is being in 109 series so no need to pay full price for it.

[Kerensky]

There are a lot of questionable air units though...

Me163 compared to Ta152, for example.

[Iscaran]

Yes but in reality the Bf 109 series were the major built craft of Wehrmacht and the 109k was in reality more close to a FW190d9 than the in-game stats tell.

Yes I noticed the strong Ta-152 as well already but did not make up my mind about it yet. But another unit to Re-balance probably...

[uran21]

Problem with balancing late German fighters is there are lot of exotic equipment that needs to fit in upgrade path for gameplay reasons in campaign. It has effect on opponent too to follow their strength. Comparing late fighters one on one with stats in the game is not fruitful because we do not have enough game mechanic elements to represent them in real light. Bottom line whichever approach is used something gets sacrificed in return.

[pstamatis]

the Jadgpanther and the Jadgtiger should be better than the Elefant. The Elefant was a mechanical disaster, considered a failure. The speed of the Elfant should be 3.

I agree on that. I am not conserned on quantifying "better" but something must change here.

Think, Elephants appeear in the first 43' scenario and untill the end of campaign these are the ultimate AT weapons, no matter if dosens of new AT models appear (why buy/upgrade to these anyway?). Ofcourse I m not saying the dogma "the newer is cooler" but at least Jadgpanthers and Jadgtiger should be "better".

Also, the same happens with german mobile artillery. Everything is the same (except rocket MA).

[Steakenglisch]

Definitely rethink your P47 and P51 values please.

Also the Bf109k is I think a tad too low on AA. Only AA=14 ? Perhaps more 16 or 18 ? Its comparable to a P47/P51 in terms of flying performance (climbing rate, acceleration, speed etc.) and a tad weaker than FW190s.

Regarding Bf 109K I ask myself for some time now who actually use it considering its date of availability and other options at that time. Its only advantage is being in 109 series so no need to pay full price for it.

Yes it makes no sense to upgrade to the 109k when there are better alternatives ... maybe implement the K one or two maps earlier?
Now it's an opinion when low on Creds, but i think the most players will upgrade the Fighters with priority because of gaining the air superiority is crucial ...

[dave123]

Ok you make a good point (Uran) about other things besides anti air going into the stats, and I haven't play tested enough to see how it all comes out, so perhaps for the most part, I will concede, but the Hurricane II should not be able to mix it up with late war aircraft, and nothing can prove otherwise. Sure, the hurricane bore the brunt of Battle of Britain, but it's kills were against lumbering under protected bombers, not BF 109's. You sure didn't see it front line fighting German fighters in 43-45, it would have been suicide.

But it's not that big a deal. It's just that I have always loved WWII aircraft, and I have read about them all my life. The respect I have for planes like the P-51 just makes me wonder what's up.

As far as the tail for the HE162, you have kinda a V shape, here is a pic of what they looked like. Basically, you just left aout the tail fins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:He162_color010.jpg