Bloody Bagration

ijontichy · Post by **ijontichy** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:07 am

How in the world am I supposed to win the Bagration standalone scenario as the German side? I am facing 9 or 10 IS-2's, a handful of T-34's (most with the 85mm gun), plus a healthy air-force, and assorted units and all I have that is of much use is 1 Panther and 1 Jagdpanther! I guess a couple of fighters, too. The rest is pure canon fodder.

So I'm given 3600 prestige points to spend. Initially I thought I should beef up my air force. But what's the point when my ground forces get annihilated anyway? Maybe I should buy the 4 King Tigers I can afford (anything less is again canon fodder) and try to cause some damage to their IS-2's. But my tanks will sustain damage in such encounters, even more when the Russian air force bombs them, and I'll have no prestige left over for replacements.

I reckon I'm 2000 prestige points short of what I need to have a chance. It just seems impossible to win this scenario.

And you know what bugs me? On its first turn one IS-2 comes up to one of my infantry in a city hex and inflicts 5 damage. Then another comes up and inflicts another 5 damage, bye bye infantry unit and city. Oh so it's that easy to take a city now? It used to be it hurt to attack an infantry in a city using a tank. Of course if I tried something similar no doubt my tank would suffer badly. The world is against me!

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:08 am

Wait till you get to Balaton next. And then Berlin after.
There's good reason the Germans didn't win the war, and I guess you can say these scenario are a good reflection of history.

Vaughn · Post by **Vaughn** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:39 am

Try lots of cheaper units. Big artillery surrounded by entrenched cheap infantry, anti tank, with a few AAs right next door. You will not be maneuverable, but you just have to hold the line.

Rudankort · Post by **Rudankort** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:18 pm

Bagration is possible in standalone scenario mode.

This is how it looked in my last attempt (on last turn): http://www.rudankort.me/capture_10072011_171229.png
I ran out of time and did not occupy the last objective, but what I achieved was enough for a victory in standalone mode.

Various approaches are possible to this scenario. I chose to hold the line along the Berezina River, and I bought 2 Stuka Gs, one rail artillery, several JagdPanthers and a few Infantry 43 units to assist my starting force. I would love to have some King Tigers, but they are too expensive, so I decided to go without them.

texican · Post by **texican** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:20 pm

Remember this:

If we lose the war in the air we lose the war and lose it quickly.

— Field Marshall Bernard Montgomery

World War 2 was all about air power. (Mostly.)

ElIndio · Post by **ElIndio** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:55 pm

That scenario sounds awesome, a true test of battle management genius...

I just started a 1939-45 campaign on 'Colonel level'.

First up Poland 1939, I smashed them with five turns to spare earning the coverted "decisive" victory

. I split my forces into two groups, one group drove straight for and took Crackow, the other the same for Lodz. I then attacked Warsaw on two sides / fronts, on mass with my two groups, winning the campaign in classic Blitzkrieg style.

Onto Norway now and I'm enjoying the 'Glory days' of the Third Reich, while it lasts.

No doubt the Soviet Union will be an entirely different prospect and I'm looking forward to the never-ending waves of T-34's and IS2's that will ruin my day....

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:31 pm

Wait till you get to Balaton next. And then Berlin after.

Cant comment on Balaton - but Berlin is a cakewalk compared to Bagration. When I tried with the axis I had 11 turns left when conquering the last VH. AND I took my time and wiped out every single allied unit.

I think there are just way too much IS2 in bagration (plus they might even be a little overpowered compared to the other "medium" heavy tanks of the axis).

I am currently reading an interesting book from Dr. Thomas Müller about German Tanks and it has some nice comparisons in there.

As I posted earlier I would recommend to switch the IS2 to T34/85, which would make up for a far better historical army composition as overall the russians built T-34/85s on a 10:1 ration compared to IS-2.

But interesting approach to buy multiple jagdpanthers in bagration...will have a try on this. Can you comment on the placing of the new bought JPs ?

ijontichy · Post by **ijontichy** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:44 pm

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I will experiment some more.

I love this scenario, and any late war scenarios where the Germans are up against it. If it's not challenging I will get bored. I just think scenario-wise there are a few tweaks I would make such as replacing half of the IS-2's with T34-85's.

Berlin (East) is actually much easier. Maybe I would make that scenario harder. Of course there's nothing stopping me doing it myself with the editor.

grabbysnatch · Post by **grabbysnatch** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:38 pm

I have played Balgration twice as Germans and both times I got annihlated

ijontichy · Post by **ijontichy** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:48 am

Tried it again twice today. Bought 2 Fighters, 2 Jagdpanthers, 2 Infantry, 2 AA (88's). That's about all I could afford first turn. Second turn bought another Jagdpanther. I can control the skies pretty quickly. But forget the ground, I got slaughtered again.

I decided to compare Panzer General's Byelorussia scenario with Panzer Corp's Bagration scenario. Same date, same general area, same battle. In PG (Byelorussia) the Soviets have the following armoured vehicles (I'm ignoring recon):

4 x T-34/85
3 x T-34/43
7 x KV-85
5 x IS-2
2 x ISU-122

In PC (Bagration) the Soviets have:

3 x T-34/85
1 x T-34/43
9 x IS-2
3 x SU-100
2 x ISU-122
1 x SU-85
1 x KV-2

The major difference here is a lot more IS-2's in PC (Bagration). The other units are much the same.

What about the Germans? In PG (Byelorussia) they have:

2 x Tiger II
2 x Panther A
1 Pz IVJ
1 x Jagdpanther
1 x Elefant
1 x JagdPz IV
2 x Hetzer

In PC (Bagration) they have:

1 x Panther G
1 x Pz IVJ
1 x Pz IVH
1 x StuG IIIF
1 x JagdPz IV
1 x Hetzer
1 x Jagdpanther

So less heavy tanks. The air force is a smaller, too: half the number of fighters. To get to rough parity with PG (Byelorussia) I would have to buy 2 Tiger II's, 1 Panther, and 2 Fighters, which would cost me all of my prestige. The Soviets don't need to buy anything, so they have around 2400 Prestige points in hand to buy more units.

The other thing I notice in PC (Bagration) is that the entrenchment values for the German infantry in the front line cities is pitiful, only 3. And units outside the city are typically at 0. In PG (Byelorussia) the entrenchment of the infantry in the cities is 8, and the units outside the cities are typically around 5. No wonder those front-line cities can't last more than a turn or two in PC (Bagration). Of course major assumption on entrenchment values meaning the same thing in two different games.

So, effectively, the difference in going from PG (Byelorussia) to PC (Bagration) is this: 1) A whole bunch of KV and T34 Soviet tanks got converted to mighty IS-2's; 2) Either the Germans have much less heavy tanks and fighters, or the Soviets have 2400 Prestige points extra if you bring the German tanks/fighters up to their former level; 3) German units are much less entrenched, cities will fall quickly.

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:32 pm

AND you forgot one major part. In PzC the russian tanks are better in stats compared to the german tanks and compared to PG.

Especially the IS-2 is much stronger in PzC !

Whilst the panther is even less strong than it was in PG - though Kings and Tigers are likely a tad stronger in PzC when compared to their orig PG units.

But the much improved IS-2 is major factor IMO.

I tried the level with a less strong IS-2 (-1 initiative and -2 HA) and immediately got much improved survivability of the germans.
(Though I think the IS-2 stats now in PzC are more realistic than the rather weak IS-2 from PG).

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:48 pm

I think the Russians have a few too many heavies and not enough T 34's in Bagration and Balaton (which i played online). The force mix is slightly off. The IS 2 is suitably devastating but the mainstay T 34 seems somewhat underdone in PzC. Even the 43 model is hardly better than a panzer III j and the later pz IV's have much stronger defense. They were a very tough nut to crack in PG but I think there a bit weak in this version and theres not many of them.
havn't played Kursk yet

Obsolete · Post by **Obsolete** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:57 pm

I can't remember if the IS-2 had better stats than the Kings in PG2. But what I do remember is they FELT better WHEN I played many years ago. Maybe I just got luckier rolls, or maybe I was biased because it also FELT the icons for the IS-2 were bigger than those for Kings, haha.

Any oldschool fans know this for sure though?

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:15 am

What's the ground defense of an IS-2 and what's the close defense of it?

That's a hint on how to kill it.

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:21 am

if you find one in a forest maybe
(hey I'm a stuka

)

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:17 am

PzC:

Init |HA | GD | CD
IS-2 12 | 18 | 26 | 6
Panther G 12 | 17 | 19 | 4
King Tiger 14 | 24 | 26 | 6
Pz IVH 9 | 13 | 14 | 3
T-34/85 11 | 17 | 14 | 2

PG:
IS-2 8 | 21 | 18 | 2
Panther G 12 | 21 | 18 | 5
King Tiger 14 | 25 | 21 | 5
Pz IVH 10 | 14 | 10 | 2
T-34/85 6 | 13 | 15 | 2

The main point why IS2 was much "weaker" in original PG was the much lower initiative and the very low close def value. In PzC the IS-2 is a tad stronger than Panther which is OK due to its equal initiative value.
In PG the IS2 always had to take the first fire because of the very low Initiative and the remaining units just did not have enough power to really damage a lot of german tanks.

The T34/85 is even stronger changed between PG and PzC...in PG again due to its very low initiative the T34s had to take the damage first and the backfire then did not make soo much damage to the german tanks.
In PzC this is reversed the Pz IV has a comparable low initiative (unrealistically low ?), while the Def values of T34 and Pz IVH were comparable which is well reflected (in PG the Pz IV even had much weaked GD !). The 85mm gun of the T34 is also stronger than the 75L48 of the IVH, but I think HA13 is too low for the IVHs - but again the major weakness is the now lower initiative value for IVH when comparing to T34.

Btw. Infantry Close Defense =2.

So even for infantry it will be nearly suicide to attack a close defending IS-2 or King Tiger.

Also strange, why is the Panther G having lower HA then Panther A and D ?!? (HA 19)....they sure used the same gun and the same ammo all the time.

HA of IS-2 is fitting, slightly better than the 75L70 of the Panthers but lower than the 88L71 from the Kings, GD is around equal between IS-2 and King. So thats OK for me.
T34 and Pz IV comparison is also fitting better than it was in PG, only maybe inititiave for IVH could need a buff so it is not cannonfodder for the russian standard tanks. Should be more of a 1:1 situation IMO.

Now for bagration the major problem is just the extreme unbalancing of the russian army composition.....the only issue is the absurd number of IS-2 in the bagration scenario which makes it so impossible to win, considering the much weaker axis forces when comparing to the original PG bagration scenario.

In reality the IS-2 were produced in fairly small numbers...compared to the T34/85 (only THIS model) the numbers were IS-2 to T34/85 were 1:10 !

In the scenario this is waaaaaaaay off. In combination with the comparable ultra weak composed german army the axis stand nearly no chance - though of course a very skilled player can make the difference as always, or kerensky just had luck

. But I will try the Jagdpanther approach since with a cost of only 465 and the following stats:
Init |HA | GD | CD
Jagdpanther 14 | 24 | 19 | 1

It is good enough to kill of T34s due to the high initiative and has good chance to kill suppressed IS-2 or survive IS-2 attacks - DESPITE the AT malus on inititive.

soldier · Post by **soldier** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:41 am

Good post
I like the stats for the T 34 85 and IS 2 in PzC, its the comparative quantities of them in the scenarios which are a bit mixed up(check out Balaton). But not all russian tanks have improved. Here are some numbers from the earlier eastern front T34.
...............I HA GD
T34 40 .. 8 9 11
T34 41 .. 8 10 11
* no 42 model * ?
T34 43 .. 8 11 11 (somethings definitely not right with this models defense

)
vs
Pz III J.. 6 9 11
Pz III J1. 8 11 11
Pz IV F2. 8 13 10
Pz IV G.. 8 13 14
Pz IV H.. 9 13 14

Iscaran · Post by **Iscaran** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:26 pm

I think after I finish the major campaign (39) I will read up through my tank and WWII books and fiddle around with the unit stats after this refreshing my knowledge.

There are IMO still a lot of minor stats "glitches" in PzC, but they mostly don't play a (major) role for gameplay.

PinkPanzer · Post by **PinkPanzer** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:10 pm

soldier wrote:if you find one in a forest maybe
(hey I'm a stuka )

You grab the IS-2 by the nose and then kick him in the rear until he retreats into the woods.
The other option is to grab the IS-2 by the nose, leave him with no retreat path and then kick him in the rear till he surrenders.

Hey I'm a DD

Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are as inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away but to return once more. Sun Tzu