Skirmishers or Velites?

[spedius01]

Ave,

As the title of this topic implies, this is an exercise in direct comparisons between two similar troop types.
The first most obvious difference between them is the cost ie. 100 denari.
Do two skirmisher units = one velite unit?

Let us see if we can support than contention or not!
The first item to check is the Squad Stats:-

Index.Squad Stats...Skirmishers..Velites..Differences
01. Squad Health............25...........25.............0
02. Morale....................225..........250..........25*
03. Agility......................35............30...........-5*
04. Melee Armour............3..............4.............1*
05. Melee Damage...........9............10.............1*
06. Melee Attack..............6..............9.............3*
07. Melee Concuss...........1..............1.............0
08. Ranged Armour..........1..............3.............2*
09. Ranged Damage.......15............15.............0
10. Ranged Attack..........30............30.............0
11. Ranged Concuss.........5..............5.............0
12. Critical Shot..............25............25.............0
13. Trample.....................0..............0.............0
14. Trample Avoid...........30............30.............0
15. Order Cost.............6000........6000.............0
16. Ammo.........................6.............8.............2*
17. Cost (Denari)............100..........200.........100*

The stars represent the differences, some more significant than others, perhaps?
Still not convincing enough?
Our next comparison is Promotions:-

1. Block - Both
2. Dodge - Both
3. Endurance - Both
4. Marksman - Both
5. Missile Protection - Both
6. Junior NCOs - Both
7. Weakspot Targeting - Both
8. Skirmish - Both
9. Drill - Both
10. Expert Throwers - Both
11. Anti-Cavalry Specialists - Both
12. Anti-Infantry Specialist - Both
13. Anti-Elephant Specialist - Both
14. Protection From Cavalry - Both
15. Protection From Infantry - Both

No differences. Still not convincing enough to help with your choice?
Our final comparison is Equipment:-

1. Weapons - Both
2. Armour - Velites only
3. Boots - Velites only
4. Helmet - Velites only
5. Standard - Both
6. Extra Javelins - Both

Quite emphatic! Velites are capable of being equipped to a much higher level than Skirmishers.

These are the basics, which would you choose? When would you choose to discard one in favour of the other, or not?
What promotion/equipment enhancements would you choose, in which order? I look forward to reading your answers.
If you have a reasoned reply please post a response, if not simply vote in the poll attached to this topic.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

PS. Check out the new topic "Skirmishers, how to use them".

[jdm]

Dont forget that skirmishers are half the price of Velites

Regards
JDM

[spedius01]

Dont forget that skirmishers are half the price of Velites

Regards
JDM

You're not wrong. The acid test is to try each of them in a number of setups and see which gives most value for their respective costs. I would hazard a guess and say that perhaps it's the Velites.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

[scarfacetarraff]

I just raised my first 2 divisions of velites, and right now they don't compare to my 2 skirmisher divisions that are at lvl 20. It's been hard getting them experience because at this point they seem to be a detriment to have on the battlefield.

[sum1won]

It depends on the use. Velites can be better in some situations, especially in single-player, but in multiplayer, skirmishers are usually far better bargains.

[Redpossum]

Excellent post, Spedius
I'm not sure there is an overall choice. It depends on the situation.

But may I point out that there's one aspect of the comparison you didn't address (not that I know how to) - How many experience points does it take them to level up? Are the skirmishers faster-levelling because they are cheaper?

I have perused the Squads.txt file in search of that variable that tells us how fast/slow a unit levels, but as I recall, I found a couple different things that looked like they might be involved, and reached no firm conclusion.

[honvedseg]

Basic Skirmies are fine for the role they were intended to do, and that's all. Place them behind a melee unit to provide support, or use them to soften inbound opponents and then run for it. Charge them into a melee and it gets painful in a hurry.

Velites are capable of providing a little additional melee capability against other low-level units after the ammo runs out, at least in rough ground. As fits a backup melee unit, they are capable of wearing armor.

[iandude]

Hmm, you have an Interesting Subject here Spedius... I am not certain? I would choose the Velites because: A: They have a better chance surviving when they have run out of ammo and only have 1 choice, to use melee weapons... B: They infact to have better promotions, you only posted the first levels of the velites and skirmishers C: and even before they use melee they have more ammo... and D: they look alittle more intimadating, don't ya think?

[iandude]

I would choose velites in both multi.p and single.p they ARE better in both

[Redpossum]

Oh man, can you imagine actually wearing that wolfskin cape?

I know it's always illustrated, because it looks all "cool" and such, but I bet you money nobody wore the damn things except at inspections.

Think about it. It'd be hot, itchy, stinky, full of bugs, YUCK!

[iandude]

OK! u might have a point atleast they got a shield... oh and by the way, im not ONLY norwiegian, im american to just saying, it's alittle aquard and all. everyone makes fun of us oh and i think they should have a thick bad-ass leather jacket and some chaps instead... ok ya'beat me...

[iandude]

Oh yeah, and i'm really trying to get rid of the militia imiage because is it just me, or does it look like that militia has boobs ? then again, thats all i think about so its just me C YA

[kongming]

I'm with possum. Can you imagine standing in the June Mediterranean sun with a dog pelt on your head!javascript:emoticon(':?')

The Celtic skirmishers with their little bucklers and plaids win the prize for the coolest uniforms. And why is it that both the Roman skirmishers and velites look like old men. Was that the case historically? Were the veterans at the end of their tours formed up into skirmisher units? What a sad way to leave the service.

[coldknight]

Velites all the way!
they are a lot better overall, wouldnt like to be one though
im a infantry type of person, close combat all the way

[couqi]

velites are far superior to skirmishers and very useful if upgraded properly. I have had very tough velite units take out lower level heavy infantry in rough terrain and they are excellent as back-ups to light infantry as they can fight when out of ammo, but they are nearly useless in CoM. skirmishers in general are just useless except in the very first battles and for the most part a waste of denari.

[kongming]

In the 2nd Macedonian thread, robindavies suggests using peasants (or skirmishers or velites) as pincushions to screen the main body of troops from missile attacks. This seems like good strategy and I also suspect it jives with historical use of skirmishers.

In game terms, other than missile protection, what other upgrades are most useful for allowing the skirmishers to endure the barrage? Are helmets a better investment than armor? Does dodge or boots improve ranged armor? Why does disciplined formation attack increase ranged armor, but balanced dispersed does not?

[sum1won]

Don't spend any money on pincushions. Ablative shielding isn't meant to survive, just to absorb some flying pointies/slow down some horses.

And I have a number of peasent regiments in most of my armies.

[moj]

A: neither?

I use one unit of skirmishers for Men in Black, then kill it.

I use... um... eight, I think... for Vadimo Lake, then kill them.

[Redpossum]

A: neither?

I use one unit of skirmishers for Men in Black, then kill it.

I use... um... eight, I think... for Vadimo Lake, then kill them.

The problem with that approach is that you are losing the XP they accumulated

[moj]

The problem with that approach is that you are losing the XP they accumulated

As an aside, in my cavalry-less game my dross units at Vadimo Lake and Cisalpine Gaul took a 284-0 pasting

My army at the time of these two battles - normally 2x aux, 4x aux arch, 1x praet, 1x aux cav - can't stand up to either opponent, so I need a quick fix. I find that having some poop on the pitch is the only way to win. A couple of low level spearmen or hastati get gobbled up far too quickly, whereas hordes of judiciously placed peasants leave significantly more time for archery practice. The way I see it, these trash units aren't 'stealing' XP from my regular army because the regular army alone is going to lose, and subsequently be XP-less.

I'd actually turn that around and say that using 'temporary troops' is better than retaining lesser troops, because it leaves more money for upgrades to improve the killingosity of the core army. In the second half of the game is there really any place for non-auxiliary units and non-Praetorians (I've never got along with Elephants and Triarii)? Sure they might make a few battles easier, but I like having a limited number of units so that I can control them during battle.

The only downside is forgetting to disband the dross before spending precious fame points on healing...