Rate of fire?

CrimsonStorm · Post by **CrimsonStorm** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:28 pm

Maybe I've missed it somewhere but can someone explain why some units have a rate of fire stat?

ie the large arty piece with 40% in barbarossa, and the russian arty with 110% in Kiev?

It doesn't appear on the stat sheet, so only seen it in the after action reports. Is there any ruling as to which units or is it just done in the scenario design?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:30 pm

Rate of Fire stat only exists in the equipment file.
Typically artillery units have varied rates of fire.

Horseman · Post by **Horseman** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:27 pm

Kerensky wrote:Rate of Fire stat only exists in the equipment file.
Typically artillery units have varied rates of fire.

But does it effect anything?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:36 pm

It affects... rate of fire.

10 strength with 40% rate of fire only has 4 shots.
10 strength with 110% rate of rate has 11 shots. (StuG IIIb)

Shot = dice rolls as you see in the expanded combat log 'L' hotkey.

Horseman · Post by **Horseman** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:09 pm

Kerensky wrote:It affects... rate of fire.

10 strength with 40% rate of fire only has 4 shots.
11 strength with 110% rate of rate has 11 shots. (StuG IIIb)

Shot = dice rolls as you see in the expanded combat log 'L' hotkey.

I suspected as much so thanks for the clarification....so is this a stat that would be useful to see other than in the combat log? As some of the big guns sem to have a lower rate of fire so may not be as effective as smaller caliber but faster firing versions

willgamer · Post by **willgamer** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:10 pm

Kerensky wrote:It affects... rate of fire.

10 strength with 40% rate of fire only has 4 shots.
11 strength with 110% rate of rate has 11 shots. (StuG IIIb)

Shot = dice rolls as you see in the expanded combat log 'L' hotkey.

11 x 1.10 (i.e. 110%) = 12.1

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:01 pm

Oops sorry. Good catch.

I meant to say 10 with 110% has 11.
11 with 110% would have 12 though.

impar · Post by **impar** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:32 am

Horseman wrote:As some of the big guns sem to have a lower rate of fire so may not be as effective as smaller caliber but faster firing versions

This concept is interesting. :hmmm:

impar · Post by **impar** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:56 pm

If am reading the correct file... and interpreting it correctly...

The only artillery class units that have a different than 100% rate of fire are:
7.5 cm FK 16 nA, with 110%
15 cm sFH 18, with 80%
17 cm K 18, with 80%
21 cm Mrs 18, with 70%
StuG IIIA, with 110%
StuG IIIB, with 110%
Sturmpanzer I, with 90%
StuG IV, with 110%
sIG 38(t) M, with 90%
Hummel, with 90%
Karl-Gerat 040, with 40%
Gustav, with 40%
280mm K5, with 60%

BriteLite · Post by **BriteLite** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:38 pm

Although ROF affects primarily artillery units a look at the ROF column in the equipment file reveals several listings in Type 5 Flak units.

impar · Post by **impar** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:17 pm

After the Sturmpanzer I range thread I started thinking about this again... Decided to just test something...

Now, am in Streets of Moscow (GC41) and attacking (via predictions) the 83rd Conscripts at (16,17) entrenched at level 3.
Downgraded some of my own artillery, all at 13 strength, to have one each of 7.5, 10.5, 15, 17 and 21 guns.
Heros are + Defense or + Movement, no + Attack.
Experience is +3 Attack on 15, 17 and 21 and +2 Atack on 7.5 and 10.5.
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 14" (13*1,1=14,3, rounded to 14), 2 killed, 9 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 13 (13*1=13), 2 killed, 8 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 2 killed, 7 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 3 killed, 7 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 9" (13*0,7=9,1, rounded to 9), 3 killed, 6 suppressed.

Using inexperienced units, same target:
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 11" (10*1,1=11), 1 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 10 (10*1=10), 2 killed, 6 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 2 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 2 killed, 6 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 7" (10*0,7=7), 2 killed, 5 suppressed.

The larger guns arent always the best gun. Especially considering the less ammo they carry.

impar · Post by **impar** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:39 pm

Same test, against the 25th Regular (12,10) in Vyazma scenario, entrechement at 5 (had to pass some turns to avoid the raining defense bonus).

Overstrengthned to 13:
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 14" (13*1,1=14,3, rounded to 14), 1 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 13 (13*1=13), 1 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 2 killed, 6 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 2 killed, 7 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 9" (13*0,7=9,1, rounded to 9), 2 killed, 6 suppressed.

Using inexperienced units, same target:
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 11" (10*1,1=11), 0 killed, 3 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 10 (10*1=10), 1 killed, 3 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 1 killed, 4 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 1 killed, 4 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 7" (10*0,7=7), 1 killed, 4 suppressed.

Same conclusion:
The larger guns arent always the best gun. Especially considering the less ammo they carry.

Tarrak · Post by **Tarrak** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:55 pm

Against targets with low defense the guns performs almost same from my experience. If you start shooting targets with higher defense you may see different outcomes as they damage of the small caliber guns may become insufficient to overcome the target's defense. On the other hand the real heavy tanks have such a high defense it almost doesn't matter which gun you shoot with.

There is a reason after all while in a campaign i usually stick to 15cm guns and do not bother upgrading further.

impar · Post by **impar** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:38 pm

I usually use ART against soft targets, mainly INF, so am more interested on how the ART SA behaves.
Anyway, an higher defense unit, hard target, the 82nd T-34/41 (12,17) in Streets of Moscow, zero entrenchement.

Overstrengthned to 13:
Experience gives +1 Attack to 7.5, 10.5, +2 Attack to 15 and +3 Attack on 17 and 21.
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 14" (13*1,1=14,3, rounded to 14), 0 killed, 3 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 13 (13*1=13), 0 killed, 3 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 1 killed, 3 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 1 killed, 4 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 9" (13*0,7=9,1, rounded to 9), 1 killed, 5 suppressed.

Using inexperienced units, same target:
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 11" (10*1,1=11), 0 killed, 2 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 10 (10*1=10), 0 killed, 2 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 0 killed, 2 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 0 killed, 2 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 7" (10*0,7=7), 1 killed, 3 suppressed.

Larger guns are somewhat better.

And against 76th 76.2mm M1939 (17,16), Streets of Moscow, entrenched at 3.
Overstrengthned to 13:
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 14" (13*1,1=14,3, rounded to 14), 2 killed, 8 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 13 (13*1=13), 2 killed, 7 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 2 killed, 6 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 10" (13*0,8=10,4, rounded to 10), 3 killed, 7 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 9" (13*0,7=9,1, rounded to 9), 3 killed, 6 suppressed.

Using inexperienced units, same target:
The 7.5 shows "Total Shots 11" (10*1,1=11), 1 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 10.5 doesnt show "Total Shots", so assuming a 10 (10*1=10), 2 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 15 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 2 killed, 4 suppressed.
The 17 shows "Total Shots 8" (10*0,8=8 ), 2 killed, 5 suppressed.
The 21 shows "Total Shots 7" (10*0,7=7), 2 killed, 4 suppressed.

Again the inconsistency of larger guns behaving worse.

PS:
Given this and the way I usualy use ART for, think I am going to upgrade my 21cm to 17cm. Same rate of fire as the 15cm, better attack than 15cm and +1 ammo than the 21cm.
The 21cm is a bit of a disappointement.

deducter · Post by **deducter** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:55 pm

Very nice analysis impar. I never did think about the artillery in such details, although I have sort of internalized your findings. In my main core force on Manstein, I still use 2 10.5 cm artillery, which are very nice against any soft targets. Frankly I think the 15 cm underperforms, perhaps I will upgrade it to the 17 cm, which at least has utility in suppressing armor.

Another thing is that the cheaper artillery saves prestige, both in terms of overstrengthing and reinforcing, as many players I suspect reach for elite reinforcements even in battle for artillery even if they take damage.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:04 pm

I cap out at 150mm guns. I only ever upgrade to the 170mm if I get a +1 range hero on my artillery, to give me a quick and strong visual identification for which of my ARTY units has 4 range.
Other then that, yea I pretty much agree the reduced RoF, reduced ammo capacity, and increased cost make the largest ARTY pieces very inefficient.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:35 am

AS far I as we have been told... rate of fire only applies to Artillery.

Your testing is flawed.

My experience shows more reversal and negative attacks than positive when comparing to combat indicator.

The Random generator is so out of wack that posting your results from one combat means nothing.

I've see artillery miss allot of times and get allot worse results than what you posted.

I've also seen allot of combats where the kills are met or exceeded what you posted but with allot less suppression.

The randomness of the combat is so extreme your test is not valid.

impar · Post by **impar** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:50 am

Razz1 wrote:AS far I as we have been told... rate of fire only applies to Artillery.

And some AA, 2cm Flakvierling, Wirbelwind and one of the half-tracked AA (7/1?).

Razz1 wrote:Your testing is flawed.
My experience shows more reversal and negative attacks than positive when comparing to combat indicator.

Well, if that is true, and if it affects all of the ART units tested in a evenly manner, that doesnt change the comparisons between the ART units tested.
A worse than expected attack made with a worse gun should still be worse than the worse than expected attack made by a better gun.

Graphically:

Now, the 7.5 only has 2-range so it is at a disadvantage.
The 10.5 and 17 seem the best choice. The 15 superior attack compared to 10.5 is betrayed by the inferior RoF, the 17 having more firepower and the the same RoF of the 15 is better.
The 21 only highlight is attacking the T-34 (hard target).

deducter · Post by **deducter** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:07 pm

Nice graphs impar, but can you plot one with suppression + kills as the y-axis? I think most of us don't care too much about kills on artillery, but about the amount of suppression.

Edit: What I mean is, plotting suppression and kills separately makes the graphs quite cluttered, but I think just plotting suppression + kill on a separate graph will be really clear.

impar · Post by **impar** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:38 pm

deducter wrote:Nice graphs impar, but can you plot one with suppression + kills as the y-axis? I think most of us don't care too much about kills on artillery, but about the amount of suppression.
Edit: What I mean is, plotting suppression and kills separately makes the graphs quite cluttered, but I think just plotting suppression + kill on a separate graph will be really clear.

Now that it is on LibreOffice I can do whatever graph I want.

The ones where kills are just added to suppression:

And, since I dont really think a suppression is as worthy as a kill, graphs where suppressions count half a kill (2 suppression = 1 kill):

PS:
Plan on doing a 3-star 10-strength run. Just to see the impact of experience and\or overstrength.

PSPS: Reposted four images.