Portable Defences

[Bugle999]

Had game tonight and a couple of things came up - appreciate clarification and reference in rule book.

1. If a Mounted unit is making it's first pursuit move can it choose to stop 1" away from deployed PD's or is it forced to pursue over them into fresh enemy?

2. A 3 wide 2 deep BG (all musket) has already deployed PD. A 3 wide mounted BG charges the left file head-on across the PD. Impact is fought inconclusively. During the manoeuvre phase the mounted unit has the option to expand his unengaged right-hand base out opposite the centre file of the foot unit - he selects not to do so. The foot unit can now move his 'unengaged' right file across to the far left to join the battle...

Question 1 - if he does move across can he still count the benefit of the PD i.e. in effect takes them with him (army list states PD's enough to cover 3 files)?
OR... Do two of the files count PD's and the other file not?

Question 2 - If he does move across what are his options after the fight (assuming he survives)? Can he subsequently pick them up and reuse (obviously with a complex test)? Is one of the 3 PD's lost but 2 retained??

Hopefully all clear.. many thanks in advance.

[deadtorius]

I believe it would be treated the same as a voluntary charge so stop 1 MU short

As long as the unengaged stand is not acting as an overlap it can move to match an existing overlap, but the PD stays put so he fights without its advantage.

[Bugle999]

Is that correct?
P 157 says 'troops approaching FF must halt 1MU away' - presumably this 'approaching' refers to the normal movement phase - as it then goes onto say troops charging FF can only move 1" in the 'impact phase'. As a pursuit is neither a normal move nor in the impact phase it seems to need clarification as to what happens? Just to murky the waters a little more - in the situation we had the pursuit move required for contact was actually only about 0.5 cm (less than an inch! Any further thoughts out there?

MTIA.

[footslogger]

Is that correct?
P 157 says 'troops approaching FF must halt 1MU away' - presumably this 'approaching' refers to the normal movement phase - as it then goes onto say troops charging FF can only move 1" in the 'impact phase'. As a pursuit is neither a normal move nor in the impact phase it seems to need clarification as to what happens? Just to murky the waters a little more - in the situation we had the pursuit move required for contact was actually only about 0.5 cm (less than an inch! Any further thoughts out there?

MTIA.

I wouldn't presume that. If they stop, the only way then to move in is during impact. Did the troops halt 1MU away from the FF before contact was made, or was this an extended pursuit?

[Bugle999]

Footslogger to clarify this was the complete position....

Initially there were two 6 man musket units side by side - the left hand unit was slightly (0.5cm) in front of the right hand unit. The left hand unit fought with a line of 4 Determined Horse one base of which fought as an overlap positioned directly in front of the 'leftermost' file of the right hand unit. When the left hand unit broke the Determined Horse pursued and (how we played it) made their initial pursuit move of only 0.5cm straight into the right hand unit. This unit had deployed their PD's in anticipation of their friends routing and the pursuit taking place.

This seemed correct at the time as the only other possible option was for the Determined Horse to remain stationary and then charge in the impact phase or try and move away in the manoeuvre phase.

Be interested to get a definitive ruling on how pursuits should be treated for PD's!!

Many thanks again.

[kevinj]

Troops approaching PDs do not have to stop 1 MU away, that only applies to FFs.

[Bugle999]

Thanks kevinj...
I think P158, 2nd column, 1st Bullet covers it as you say... 'PD are treated as field fortifications when their defenders are in close combat against mounted, but give no advantage against foot, elephants or shooting. However, PD have no effect on movement'.

What do yo think about my 2nd question in original post above - does the PD move with the base when repositioned to fight and what options are there after fight to pick them back up??

many thanks

[kevinj]

My view is that, as feeding in bases does not count as a move (P94) then you have not moved away from your PDs and could pick them up at a later point.

[Bugle999]

Could the file that 'you feed into the battle' take the PD with them and so therefore gain the potential + in the fight...spurious I think???

[quackstheking]

I think that's pushing it a bit!!!

Don

[kevinj]

I agree!

[hazelbark]

Could the file that 'you feed into the battle' take the PD with them and so therefore gain the potential + in the fight...spurious I think???

Since its pretty clear they can't be moved unless picked up...no.

[Aetius]

Sorry to resurrect this topic - but I was just wondering upon what kevinj has based his firm view that troops do not have to stop 1MU away from Portable Defences (PD)?

The rules state that PD are treated like Field Fortifications (FF) in combat - for mounted troops
So it seems logical that combat includes Impact and for FF you have to stop 1 MU away from FF and can only move into contact/impact/combat from 1 MU away

Otherwise the only advantage of PD is to add a POA for the defending foot against mtd troops - but the mtd troops can still charge full distance & hit the foot

Seems a bit counterintuitive to me

Aetius

[kevinj]

It's page 158. "PD have no effect on movement".

[Aetius]

Ah - I see - & there was me thinking that that only applied to the troops carrying the PDs!

Again ... I must refrain from applying logic ... it's a set of gaming rules after all

Many thanks Kevin

Aetius
PS: so I can cart my chavel-de-frise (spanish riders) or spiked pavices etc around through any terrain that my MF move about in freely - with no penalty? If so that sounds good to me

[timmy1]

Think of them being used as langlaff (sp?) poles...

[Aetius]

Having re-read (& re-read again) the appropriate set of text in the book - personally I think that we have a very broad interpretation of the wording here (above).

The section about the PD's is written in such a manner that it does not specifically state whether the movement aspect applies to enemy charging or moving into contact with PDs or to the troops carrying them. However it also states clearly that PDs act like FF for mtd troops charging them.

Mtd troops charging FFs have to move up to 1 MU away and may then charge. So if PDs have the same effect as FF then that surely is what mtd troops must do if they wish to engage troops protected by deployed PDs?

My own interpretation was (originally) that the wording that PDs did not effect movement, only applied to the troops carrying the PDs - as here there was a clear difference between static FFs and portable PDs. but that the PDs - as that is also what the wording states.

[rbodleyscott]

The intention is that the PD do not affect enemy movement.

I think your alternative interpretation of the wording is fairly far-fetched, given that even proper field fortifications do not affect their own troops' movement.

[Aetius]

Actually - not that far fetched Richard - Field Fortifications do affect enemy troop movement quite considerably - so wording that states that Portable Defenses are treated like FF might imply that enemy troops stop 1 MU away from PDs as they do with FF.

It's also perfectly logical that troops carrying Spanish Riders - large logs with sharp spikes stuck in them - just might conceivably be slowed down carrying them (in poor going or otherwise), so wording that states that PDs do not affect movement might just as logically imply that friendly troops carrying PDs are not slowed down. The wording about not affecting movement makes no reference to friendly or enemy troops.

IMHO the wording is vague & not specific - and therefore open to interpretation - so thank you for the clarification.