No weather?

AlvaroSousa · Post by **AlvaroSousa** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:12 am

I just realized the CEAW has no weather effects except the Russia Winter.

So you can perform D-Day on Christmas eve if you like.

Any attempt to place weather in this game?

Stryder · Post by **Stryder** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:16 am

i noticed the same thing and imposed house rules on myself that I could only invade May- September but these should be something to prevent this depending on the sea zone you are in... Scandinavian region would be far harder than Mediterranean I imagine to get the weather necessary to support a large invasion

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:07 am

The lack of weather outside russia does not just impact invasions. Historically the germans cancelled the invasion of France a number of times due to bad weather during the phoney war. The airforce can't fly and the ground is soft, plus you only have half the daylight in winter.

Notice how everyone seems to invade France and the low countries early in the game. There is no penalty for attacking in winter and you get better odds because a lot of the French army has not yet arrived. This itself is not really historical as the French army was deployed within a few weeks of the start of the war, with a few divisions reinforcement during the winter.

If out of russia weather was included it would need to impact the ATTACKER only

Dave

davetheroad · Post by **davetheroad** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:12 am

Guderian wrote:i noticed the same thing and imposed house rules on myself that I could only invade May- September but these should be something to prevent this depending on the sea zone you are in... Scandinavian region would be far harder than Mediterranean I imagine to get the weather necessary to support a large invasion

I like your may-september house rule
Maybe have this restriction for Atlantic/North Sea and Baltic coasts but allow invasions for the Med/Black Sea and African atlantic coast.

Of course there was a exception, Norway, which was in april

Dave

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:30 am

It's something we're looking in to but the biggest issue is feeding it all back to the player without cluttering up the nice clean UI system. You need to know what weather region a hex is in and what the weather is like each turn. It's a lot of info to show on a per hex basis!

Then we need a system for allocating hexes to weather regions, a way to generate weather and a way to take in to account those effects. Then of course the AI needs to know how to behave differently in different weather conditions. So all in all its on our wish list but it is a big job!

AlvaroSousa · Post by **AlvaroSousa** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:48 pm

Be nice. The game is already very good (best out there currently for its strategic era). I think it can be excellent with the correct adjustments.

An idea perhaps would be just a weather button. Click it and all the hexes appear with their weather sybmol, unclick and its gone. Like in the mini map for units, names, and so on.

Stryder · Post by **Stryder** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:04 am

winky51 wrote:Be nice. The game is already very good (best out there currently for its strategic era). I think it can be excellent with the correct adjustments.

An idea perhaps would be just a weather button. Click it and all the hexes appear with their weather sybmol, unclick and its gone. Like in the mini map for units, names, and so on.

who isn't being nice? are you referring to a post in some other thread?

stalins_organ · Post by **stalins_organ** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:36 am

I think he forgot the "that will be.." start to the sentence

Stryder · Post by **Stryder** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:00 am

Doh... now I get it.

I was just walking around the neighborhood with the dog and I had an idea..

What if instead of the sea hex being changed or having to present too much info, the coast line (the line between the ocean hex and the land hex) changes color depending on the weather?:

Red= rough seas = 99% loss of effectiveness or no invasion is possible
Orange= heavy seas = 66% loss of effectiveness
Yellow= light = 33% loss
Green= calm = 0% loss

If storms wanted to be portrayed at sea, the entire hex bordered could be colored and transports or ships could be damaged.

If the AI does not properly respond to these new rules, perhaps the AI could just be prevented from making invasions from Nov-March or some chosen time and the human player could receive the penalties above... that way we get the weather affect but the AI does not make catastrophic mistakes.

VonManteuffel · Post by **VonManteuffel** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:18 am

The weather situation is a problem, definitely. As far as I can tell, air is never limited by weather, which is just crazy.

frighteningfred · Post by **frighteningfred** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:10 pm

how about a blinking hex to represent weather issues?

FF

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:40 pm

Maybe it's possible to add a show weather toggle button. When this button is pressed weather will be shown with hatching or a symbol in every hex affected by weather. E. g.
* Clear: No hatch / symbol
* Rain: Diagonal dotted black lines hatch or a few raindrops symbol
* Mud: Diagonal solid black lines hatch or dense raindrops symbols
* Snow: Dotted diagonal white lines hatch or a few snow symbols
* Blizzard: Solid diagonal white lines hatch or dense snow symbols

It's possible to only have clear, mud and snow. The you can use black diagonal lines for mud and white diagonal lines for snow or
raindrops symbols for mud and snow symbols for snow.

With such hatching / symbols you can still see the other information in each hex. But it should be possible to turn off these symbols.

It should be a choice to see the weather zones and current weather in each zone on the strategic map. Maybe similar to showing the color of each hex ala they way you show Allied control, Axis control, neutral etc.

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:32 am

Zones are a good idea, but rather than complicating display with more colors, blinking hexes, dancing girls, etc---why not just expand the Russia-winter effect? So, for example, in the Northern Europe zone, there could be a random chance of a unit losing effectiveness in October through April, with the chance of that happening being much higher in December, January and February.

This way, you would not need to play with the map display, and in fact it would not even be essential that you know whether you are in, let's say, the Northern Europe Zone or the Southern Europe Zone. If it's December, and your unit effectiveness sucks, that's about all the feedback you really need.

OxfordGuy3 · Post by **OxfordGuy3** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Was wondering why weather is so poorly implemented in this game, when much else is done well, this makes it so much less realistic IMHO, would it really be that difficult ti implement?

Fallshcirmjaeger · Post by **Fallshcirmjaeger** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:00 pm

Hmmmm....I am wondering if weather is really even necessary outside the one weather event already in play? I mean, this is a strategic game first, and did weather really have any strategic impact on the war? I know some would argue that several campaigns were delayed or rescheduled due to local weather conditions, but what were the overall effects of such delays? Germany was going to invade France and Russia no matter what. Overlord was going to happen no matter what. Etc etc etc et al...

I guess my thing is that, given the map scale and length of turns(3 weeks), can we realistically think that any weather event would have such a widespread impact as to cause any real change in operations? Weather is generally a local event, meaning that it may be sunny blues skies in London but thunderstorms in Cherbourg. It might be raining in Velikye Luki but clear in Smolensk. To reflect such localized patterns on a hex by hex basis or other method is a daunting task indeed, and for what real gain to gameplay? Any new system would apply the weather effects for an entire turn, and, except in a few conditions, inclement weather patterns capable of affecting strategic operations simply do not last three weeks. At most, weather might delay operations for a few days or a week.

The Russian Winter of 1941 was the only real weather event that had any real strategic impact on the war, and this was due more to Hitler's unwavering faith in Blitzkrieg and consequential lack of preparation more than anything else. At no other time did the weather play any strategic role. Notice that the winters of '42, '43 and '44 are rarely, if ever, included as featured weather events in many games, even though the winter of '43 was actually colder than that of 1941! This is because by this time the Germans had learned the lesson. We could adjust Unit Effectiveness or Terrain properties to reflect the differences and hazards of the changing seasons, I guess, but still I am not convinced of the value of such a change. Probably the net effect of such a system would be to gently nudge the players to conform to a more historical approach.

So, when we think of weather, we are thinking tactically, not strategically. I know some will debate this, and I am certain such debates will have some validity. But, in my mind, where the rubber meets the road is that CEAW is first and foremost a strategic endeavor, and weather, though pesky and unpredictable, is rarely a deciding factor in the strategic view of things.

~

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Sat May 10, 2008 4:26 pm

davetheroad wrote:The lack of weather outside russia does not just impact invasions. Historically the germans cancelled the invasion of France a number of times due to bad weather during the phoney war.

Dave

Excellent point about the Sitzkrieg, but I feel compelled to point out that the winter of 39/40 was one of the coldest on record.

I have read that some of the last-minute work on the Maginot Line was hampered by temperatures so cold that that wet concrete froze solid before it had time to set.

Not that any of this invalidates your point. I commented very early on about the lack of weather, particularly when we were comparing CEAW to Panzer General. But PG was a theatre game; one could credibly have the same weather across the whole map. Obviously, this doesn't work with CEAW.

I'm still with Iain on this, though. Let's be very careful about cluttering up a wonderfully clean system.

Peter Stauffenberg · Post by **Peter Stauffenberg** » Sat May 10, 2008 11:34 pm

I think the weather rules could easily be changed without having to develop a completely new UI etc.

You can define the weather in zones and set in the editor which particular zone each country is a member
of. That menas no programming of weather zone lines etc.

Examples of typical weather zones:
Arctic: Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia (including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and eastern Poland)
Temperate: Denmark, UK, Ireland, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Persia, Switzerland, Spain, Greece
Desert: Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq

Weather types:
Clear: Normal movement and combat
Mud: Movement halved. No transports can land into a mud hex except from a port. Clear, forest and rough hexes are treated as swamp hexes for movement and combat purposes.
Snow: Movement halved. No transports can land into a snow hex except from a port. All units lose efficiency during the first turn of Snow according to the following rules.

Arctic weather zone:
Axis except Finnish: -40 efficiency in 1939, -35 efficiency in 1940, -30 efficiency in 1941, -25 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Allies + Finnish: -20 efficiency in 1939, -20 efficinecy in 1940, - 15 efficiency in 1941, -15 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Russians: -15 efficiency in 1939, -15 efficiency in 1940, -10 efficiency in 1941, - 10 efficiency in 1942 etc.

Temperate weather zone:
Axis: --20 efficiency in 1939, -20 efficinecy in 1940, - 15 efficiency in 1941, -15 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Allies: -20 efficiency in 1939, -20 efficinecy in 1940, - 15 efficiency in 1941, -15 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Russians: -15 efficiency in 1939, -15 efficiency in 1940, -10 efficiency in 1941, - 10 efficiency in 1942 etc.

Chance of weather in each weather zone. Roll 1d10 per turn for weather in each zone each turn

Desert zone: Always clear
Temperate: October/March 1-7: clear, 8-10: mud, november/february: 1-5 clear, 6-10 mud, december/january: 1-5 snow, 6-10 mud. April-September: always clear
Arctic: October/April: 1-7 clear, 8-10 mud, November/March: 1 clear, 2-5 snow, 6-10 mud, December/January/February: snow, May-September: Always clear

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Sun May 11, 2008 1:13 am

Stauffenberg wrote:I think the weather rules could easily be changed without having to develop a completely new UI etc.

You can define the weather in zones and set in the editor which particular zone each country is a member
of. That menas no programming of weather zone lines etc.

Examples of typical weather zones:
Arctic: Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia (including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and eastern Poland)
Temperate: Denmark, UK, Ireland, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Persia, Switzerland, Spain, Greece
Desert: Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Iraq

Weather types:
Clear: Normal movement and combat
Mud: Movement halved. No transports can land into a mud hex except from a port. Clear, forest and rough hexes are treated as swamp hexes for movement and combat purposes.
Snow: Movement halved. No transports can land into a snow hex except from a port. All units lose efficiency during the first turn of Snow according to the following rules.

Arctic weather zone:
Axis except Finnish: -40 efficiency in 1939, -35 efficiency in 1940, -30 efficiency in 1941, -25 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Allies + Finnish: -20 efficiency in 1939, -20 efficinecy in 1940, - 15 efficiency in 1941, -15 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Russians: -15 efficiency in 1939, -15 efficiency in 1940, -10 efficiency in 1941, - 10 efficiency in 1942 etc.

Temperate weather zone:
Axis: --20 efficiency in 1939, -20 efficinecy in 1940, - 15 efficiency in 1941, -15 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Allies: -20 efficiency in 1939, -20 efficinecy in 1940, - 15 efficiency in 1941, -15 efficiency in 1942 etc.
Russians: -15 efficiency in 1939, -15 efficiency in 1940, -10 efficiency in 1941, - 10 efficiency in 1942 etc.

Chance of weather in each weather zone. Roll 1d10 per turn for weather in each zone each turn

Desert zone: Always clear
Temperate: October/March 1-7: clear, 8-10: mud, november/february: 1-5 clear, 6-10 mud, december/january: 1-5 snow, 6-10 mud. April-September: always clear
Arctic: October/April: 1-7 clear, 8-10 mud, November/March: 1 clear, 2-5 snow, 6-10 mud, December/January/February: snow, May-September: Always clear

This would be a very elegant way to address the need for weather in this game. It would certainly make it a bit riskier to invade Holland in January of 1940