Killing a King Tiger...

[Magnum50]

So far, I think this unit is ridiculously strong... I surrounded one with an AT and 6 tanks, hitting it from all sides... 2 to 3 squares away, and every unit was 0% chance to penetrate, 0% to kill... so how do you kill one? Has anyone killed one?

more info and screens here:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/t ... ost3592700

[random27]

You can kill them from rear or on a side.
You are often more numerous with allies

[massina_nz]

Hit it enough times and it's morale will drop below zero, then move a unit next to it, hit it again and it will surrender.

[k9mike]

once you get it suppressed you can assualt it with infantry also..
sometimes you just have to ambush and hope for a good roll...and you will take it out. its not easy playing as the Americans...lol

[Magnum50]

Like I said, 6 tanks and an AT gun surrounded it... each getting off 2 shots for a total of 12 shots and nothing... my Q. why is the percentage 0% for hit, penetration, kill? There should be at least some chance to hit and kill it.

[IainMcNeil]

The reason for this is for gameplay.

In reality there was probably a 0.001% chance of knocking out a King Tiger with a 6pdr unless in the flank/rear at point blank range and even then I'd have to look up if it could penetrate.

We rounded these very low % chances down to 0. This means there really is no point in wasting time trying to take the shot. We didn't want to have behaviour that was very unlikely to occur but to maximise your chances you felt like you should take the 0.001% chance just in case. It would have been boring but players would have done it because they might be missing the chance to kill it.

If it says 0% then don't waste your shots. You cant kill it. The only thing you can do is get a deflection which reduces it morale. Your best bet is to plan to get it to surrender not actually kill it.

[MrsWargamer]

I was reading through some of my history books and was reflecting on how soooo many big cats are abandoned because they ran out of fuel, or they ran afoul of the terrain ie mud etc, or they found themselves in a position where the crew just had to abandon the tanks.

Lots of Tigers and nothing wrong with them and still lost as if they had been blow to bits.

If a 6 pounder has no real chance, well, tough bananas eh, why make the game sympathise if you never had a chance. Repeat hits and reduced morale is usually how I take out this menaces. I NEVER wait and go for the kill shot, as I know in most cases it won't happen.

Recently took on a Tiger, and it shot up 3 Shermans, and wasted several infantry attacks on it. But it eventually surrendered 3 turns later when I had finally defeated the crew even if not the vehicle.

I'm also a big fan of mortars (which can seem like a cheap shot, but heh beats open confrontation and seems to reflect real world attitude eh. Would YOU want to be the first Sherman to lob a round at it?

I am more often seeing Tigers break down than anything else. Seems in line with my books too.

Wargames, they are not supposed to be about 'fair' they are mental challenges, you are supposed to defeat the challenge, not wait for the game to hold you hand.

[k9mike]

Iain, on another token...why dont you up the armor penetration values on the some of the American tanks? Ie, the 76mm, and the M36 Jackson...the American tanks get smoked too easy, and they did have good rounds in those TD's...and that Jackson had a 90mm! that thing could easily take out a tiger...thats why they put those things out there as well as trying to get that Pershing into operation. just frustrating seeing rounds bounce of side an flank shots, while they turn there gun and BAMM! Dead....Sorry for Rant...just tired of playing as Americans and hiding and hoping to ambush or get alot of luck...which I dont seem to be having lately.

[cardiffian]

It seems daft having a tank in the game which you have to rely on luck to either knock it out or make the crew surrender. I also agree with K9mike concerning the American 90mm gun. Only trouble is, hardly any Pershings saw action during WW2.

[k9mike]

Yah, but the point is...its a game. other games have used them. kinda help to level the playing field abit. Lord knows...their not going to give us the 5-7 tanks to 1 advantage like they really had.

[IainMcNeil]

We may add a Pershing's at some point but the idea is to get the feel of the war and this is how the Allies felt. They really did have to go around these tank road blocks and try and take them out in some other way. Artillery, Airstrikes, flanking etc.

[sbeekman]

I love this game, but this is one thing that drives me crazy -- the Allied armor is simply no match for the big German tanks. Go look at the MP games available list, the guys posting challenges have a clear majority selecting to be the Axis -- there's a reason for that. If you read the unit "bio" for alot of the Allied armor it says they were too thinly armored to fight head-on and need to use their "speed" for side and rear shots. The huge problem with that is that we are fighting on small maps that make flanking highly difficult against a decent opponent -- which makes those fast, weakly armored tanks useless sitting ducks.

[Old_Warrior]

Excellent point, Iain. That is why so many infantry grunts were frustrated to see the armor "pulling out" and heading for the rear. Hard to induce a Tech Sgt. to handle a "big cat" with one of those "Ronsons."

Remember guys, the US doctrine for armor was for infantry assist. They really only developed a true tank vs. tank mindset later in the war with the vehicles like the Pershing. And that came too late.

The US usually called in tons of artillery to "stun" the armor or drive off the enemy infantry and THEN would descend on it with hunter-killer infantry teams armed with explosives.

Read "Against the Panzers" sometime to get a real feel for WW2 US vs. German armor battles. Arracourt was a rare event for the US.

The point about the Tigers being abandoned hits it "spot on" - they rarely got knocked out by our armor. Usually it took someone calling down divine intervention to get one of those babies to smoke.

Comment on the 90mm - has anyone checked the values for the M36 Jackson. I just did in the Editor. Here are the AP value for each:

M4 Sherman - 60
M36 Jackson - 81

That is a nice increase in AP ability.

[k9mike]

Yah, but its too bad you usually miss all the time on first shot...and guess what happens to you on the Opp fire....BOOM!!!!! The US had some good Rounds they used in the TD's and they were getting kills alot easier then what happens in this game. I realize that the armor is alot thinner...and the need to ambush and what not...its just that usually you never get a one shot kill...and YOU end up being the one shot kill on the Opp fire..

[Old_Warrior]

I disagree on that - the game has a probability factor and it goes by that. Now I will say this - the old Squad Leader/Cross of Iron module introduced the aspect of adding bonuses to second shots. The game does take into account the SIZE of a target. The King Tiger would be considered a LARGE target. A Hetzer is a SMALL target. A Mk IV F2 is a Medium target.

This is all taken into account for the to hit (TH) calculation.

I have seen my M4s take out two vehicles in a row. I have also seen them miss twice when I felt that they should have hit. I think if you sat down with an armored commander you would find out that WW2 armor was not like firing an M1 Abrams.

The ONE big critique I DO have is the ability to Fire on the Move. Most WW2 vehicles up until 1944 could not do this. Most had to stop and fire. In this game you can move, fire, move again and fire again. Frankly most of the vehicles IF THEY MOVE should NOT be able to fire in that phase. But of course there is a 50 percent reduction in the TH calculation anyway. I concede this point on those grounds BUT the M4 Sherman had gyro stabilizers as did the other American vehicles so equipped. Thus the Sherman should have some advantage over its German counterparts in the "Shoot and Scoot" dept.

But again, we cyber warriors push our Shermans into situations that MOST of the armored commanders of WW2 would not get themselves into. For instance you cannot compare a M3 Lee/Stuart to a PT Boat. They were not meant to go charging in to draw away APs from the enemy. But WE do that. Why? Well because the M3 is just a cyber tool. There are no real human beings at the controls.

I like how the STUN rules are handled but I would prefer that even forward motion over OPEN ground against a King Tiger be restricted. Not many tank commanders would roll out into the open to lock horns with those big boys.

[GottaLove88s]

TERMINATING A KING TIGER - USER GUIDE

Hey Magnum, I feel your pain. I've been trying to crack this for a week or so now. Since MP open beta 2.0 came out, we've all been trying to figure out how to break even as the Allies. The question is always how to kill King Tigers (sometimes even Panthers or Tigers). See -> viewtopic.php?f=90&t=34833

All along, Iain's been cajoling, it can be done, just suppress it and then take the surrender (yeah right! ).

The challenge is the KT's impenetrable armour and frustratingly accurate reaction fire. If a KT, P or T can see you, it's going to fire back every time you fire (or move) and its overwhelming firepower will usually take you out (PS. Wish I understood the reaction fire rules. Anybody? Sometimes a KT will fire 3 or 4 times in reaction, which is more shots than they get in their own turn).

Through trial and error, here's what I've figured out:

(i) Team - You need 3 or more Shermans (they have to be Shermans but can be any mix of plain M4, 76 or Calliope; your forward men are going to receive reaction fire and US tank destroyers don't have strong enough armour to suck up a frontal shot)... you need 3 or more bombardment units (Priests/mortars are not optional when taking on KTs. Max them in force selection)... you need tank destroyers and/or infantry units everywhere that your target might go next... But surprisingly, AT guns are useless against KTs, from any angle (take the mortars instead).

(ii) Cover - Keep the Priests and mortars out of sight, or this is going to be a very short action.

(iii) Step 1. Blind - For this to work, your tank destroyers and/or infantry have to sneak around out of sight... you need numerical advantage on long vision infantry... the early game is blinding him (take out as much of his infantry as you can, especially scouts).

(iv) Step 2. Bombard the KT. Heavily. Use both Priests, the Calliope, 3 mortars. This might not suppress the beast (seriously) but unless you're really unlucky, it should soften it to 40-60 morale. This is why you've got to keep everything out of sight. He's going to kick your ass if he can find you.

(v) Step 3. Next turn, repeat step 2. If you're lucky his traction will fail and he might not move. Use a fighter-bomber too if you can (you don't have to, but it helps if you need to save bombardment fire for his other units).

(vi) This should, nearly always, reduce the KT's morale close to, or below zero. Beware, he's still dangerous. Bringing tank destroyers into view is still going to get them killed through reaction fire (sure, the M36 has nice armour piercing fire stats but the armour is paper to a Tiger). Don't do it. Every time he kills a unit, his morale creeps back up again.

(vii.a) Once he's below zero, bring something, anything, in from behind or the side/rear to take a surrender. You have to be immediately adjacent before you fire. If he's got other healthy units nearby, there's a good chance you'll lose this unit, but it's worth it. Take that KT out... To have other units ready and waiting in useful places, you have to lure him to come to you, with infantry in woods and houses... and fast tank destroyers hidden around corners... Now you're going to say, but what if he won't come to me? That's great. If you can "scare" his KT into not playing, you've already won. Just take the flags.

(vii.b) If you don't have anything close enough to take a surrender, sneak things around to get closer... bombard the KT again, once, to keep it suppressed... you don't need to do it more than once, but if you hit a suppressed KT at least once every turn, it won't recover any morale.

This strategy works facing up to three heavy tanks working together (suppress the closest two KTs to below 50 morale; if two are suppressed, they can't shoot you during his turn and you shouldn't do anything stupid in yours, like shoot or move, frustrating as that is). Most opponents wouldn't advance their third KT solo, but if he does, that's why you've got the Shermans upfront. Suck up his fire this turn, frontal only; bombard to suppress the third next turn, then start again at (v) Step 3 above. Post your screenshots here to share that you've bagged one (it will make everyone feel better to know that it's possible).

Examples:

Two KTs working one five spaces in front of the other - Took out the first KT through bombardment from Priests, Calliope and mortars. After two turns of that, it retreated its ass towards my infantry in the woods. Smouldering wreck just above the M4s. Nice. My scout sees his infantry which are held down by the M36, out of line of sight for the KT. My 6-pdr AT gun is lined up on the second KT but frankly, it showed zero chance of success on a KT at any angle or distance (including point blank to the side). Choose mortars every time (first because they work, and second because you can use them up to 9 spaces away, so they're a lot safer and you might get to use them more than once).

KT1.jpg (146.02 KiB) Viewed 6063 times

Two KTs working side by side. Previous 2-3 turns of bombardment had reduced two KTs to morale 10 and 35. Further bombardment caused the first KT to retreat side on to my infantry in the woods. Surrendered and removed from the map. The second didn't need bombardment because it was close enough for a Sherman to come up behind. BAM. That felt good. Use the edges of larger maps. Your opponent probably can't see you there.

KT1a.jpg (49.26 KiB) Viewed 6063 times

None of the above means you'll automatically win as the US, but you'll feel better not being trampled on... A King Tiger owner will respect you again... Here's a current game where we're 3 KTs, 3 Panthers, a Puma and a halftrack down for 3 M36s, a 76, a Calliope, a scout and a halftrack of mine... my opponent's still got at least one more KT and one more Panther, that I can see... so we're back to even rather than a surefire win or lose.

KT3.jpg (45.26 KiB) Viewed 6063 times

GOOD LUCK BAGGING YOUR OWN KT! Have fun gentlemen.

[Old_Warrior]

Well and here is something else, guys: KT encounters were RARE in WW2. They only made 492 KTs. I would encourage scenario designers to NOT include them as much as possible. Why? Well because frankly the US would try their best to use support means to take them out. When they did appear they often dominated the battlefield.

Try and remember the most meaningful encounters of KTs:

1. Bulge - KG Peiper - airpower accounted for a couple I believe but for the most part they just RAN OUT OF GAS!

2. Normandy - three were knocked out by combat - the commander's tank fell into a bomb crater during Goodwood.

Here is what Wiki had to say about their combat experience:

Combat history

The first combat use of the Tiger II was by the 1st Company of the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion (s.H.Pz.Abt. 503) during the Battle of Normandy, opposing Operation Atlantic between Troarn and Demouville on 18 July 1944; losses were two from combat, plus the company commander's tank which became irrecoverably trapped after falling into a bomb crater made during Operation Goodwood.[36]

On the Eastern Front, it was first used on 12 August 1944 by the 501st Heavy Tank Battalion (s.H.Pz.Abt. 501) resisting the Lvov–Sandomierz Offensive. It attacked the Soviet bridgehead over the Vistula River near Baranów Sandomierski. On the road to Oględów, three Tiger IIs were destroyed in an ambush by a few T-34-85s.[37] Because these tanks suffered ammunition explosions which caused many crew fatalities, main gun rounds were no longer allowed to be stowed within the turret, reducing capacity to 68.[38] Up to fourteen Tiger IIs of the 501st were lost in the area between 12 and 13 August to flanking ambushes by the Soviet T-34-85 and IS-2 tanks in inconvenient sandy terrain.[39]
A large tank with sloped frontal armor and a flat faced turret, by a column of marching soldiers wearing overcoats and helmets, in a wide city street. A large building to the rear shows the scars of battle.
A Tiger II of s.H.Pz.Abt. 503 and Hungarian troops in a battle scarred street in Buda's Castle district, October 1944

On 15 October 1944 Tiger IIs of 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion played a crucial role during Operation Panzerfaust, supporting Otto Skorzeny's troops in taking the Hungarian capital of Budapest, which ensured that the country remained with the Axis until the end of the war. The 503rd then took part in the Battle of Debrecen. The 503rd remained in the Hungarian theater of operations for 166 days, during which it accounted for at least 121 Soviet tanks, 244 anti-tank guns and artillery pieces, five aircraft and a train. This was at the loss of 25 Tiger IIs; ten were knocked out by Soviet troops and burned out, two were sent back to Vienna for a factory overhaul, while thirteen were blown up by their crews for various reasons, usually to prevent them from falling into enemy hands. Kurt Knispel, the highest scoring tank ace of all time (162 enemy AFVs destroyed), also served with the 503rd, and was killed in action on 29 April 1945 in his Tiger II.[40]

The Tiger II was also present at the Ardennes Offensive of December 1944,[41] the Soviet Vistula–Oder[42] and East Prussian Offensives in January 1945,[43] the German Lake Balaton Offensive in Hungary in March 1945,[44] the Battle of the Seelow Heights in April 1945, and finally the Battle of Berlin at the end of the war.[45]

The 103rd SS Heavy Tank Battalion (s.SS Pz.Abt. 503) claimed approximately 500 kills in the period from January to April 1945 on the Eastern Front for the loss of 45 Tiger IIs (most of which were abandoned and destroyed by their own crews after mechanical breakdowns or for lack of fuel).[46]

---------------------end of article---------------------

Note that the Soviets ganged up on them and that T34/85s were able to knock them out.

Summary:

1. The early variants should have a higher chance of explosion if hit in the turret. Now I do not believe that the game differentiates between a HULL and TURRET hit but that is something that could be added to a future version. A TURRET hit COULD disable the turret too causing the crew to bail out.

2. The Tiger could not traverse its long barrel in towns. Something that the short barrel M4 Sherman COULD do. Again, a LONG BARREL type could be introduced. This means that the vehicle could not turn its turret if a Building or other structure exists in an ADJACENT square.

3. Reaction fire should have FAST TURRET and SLOW TURRET traverse taken into account. A new class of vehicle aspect should be created in the program to reflect this. FT and ST should be attributes available to turreted vehicles.

Thanks for posting your comments on this. I would probably do the same. Just pile in the artillery and airpower on the monster and hope that it bogs down too.

[IainMcNeil]

Whenever I see a King Tiger I screen it and avoid it. Suppress it with artillery over time and if I get a chance run in and make it surrender but don't try and take it out.

Instead mass your forces in the rest of the German force. You will outnumber them significantly. Take out the supporting PzIV's and Stugs and then once you've taken out everything else worry about the KT.

[GottaLove88s]

We hear you Iain, but because of their powerful/accurate reaction fire, KTs can rarely be ignored... Usually a smart enemy will bring in one or two KTs with his other armour, maybe including a couple of Panthers and a couple of PzIVs or StuGs. Absolutely, we'll suppress the KT first, but that takes at least one turn bombarding with everything. Then, it's still not safe to move into range to attack his other units, let alone fire on his other units, because if the KT's still there, its reaction fire will toast you even if you're firing on something else... If a KT is by itself, sure, different story, suppress, keep suppressed and ignore while you concentrate elsewhere... But if a KT is grouped with other units, you have to take down what you can, and that might mean the KT first, if not doing that would leave many of your units exposed... Thinking real world, can anyone imagine Patton saying, "Ok boys, the King Tigers are suppressed... Forget 'em while we concentrate on the real threats...", chew cigar and smile smugly like only Patton can

[GottaLove88s]

PS. the other little issue for avoiding KTs is that in 2.0.4 MP, some players are choosing sides with four KTs and four Panthers... so the German heavies quickly become the problem, leaving little time to deal with the small stuff first... But we know you're about to fix that