Figure preparation HELL

[ravenflight]

Hi All,

I'm having HEAPS of problems with my figure preparation of late.

Now, I'm an experienced painter and people say that I do a good job, so please keep this in mind, I've prep'd MANY figures in my day, probably tens of thousands so prepping isn't a new experience, but THIS problem is a new experience for me.

I'm having no end of trouble getting my paint figures to accept the paint. The undercoat keeps pulling away from the figure. Here's the prep method I use:

1 - scrub the figures with a toothbrush and detergent in water.
2 - dry the figures thoroughly
3 - trim off excess flash and sculpt poor or damaged areas
4 - drill out hands
5 - scrub the figures again with a toothbrush and detergent in water.
6 - dry figures with a hairdrier
7 - base the figures on my painting platform
8 - undercoat figures in watered down black artist acrylics (Atelier).


At point 8 above, I'm having great difficulty in not getting pinpoints of white metal showing through, and in some cases a several mm wide circle!

I've even subsequent to undercoating gone back and hit those spots with full strength Valejo black! Even THAT doesn't seem to have worked!! The rejected area gets smaller and smaller, but come on - it's taking me hours just to undercoat my damned figures!

I'm at a loss as to what to do. Any thoughts?

[wildone]

i find that using a thinned down enamel based paint works best. It bonds with the metal and the acrylic paints cover easily.

[titanu]

Try:

http://www.international-paints.co.uk/p ... primer.jsp

It is sold at B&Q and/or Sainsburys Homebase in the UK.

[zoltan]

Hi All,

I'm having HEAPS of problems with my figure preparation of late.

Now, I'm an experienced painter and people say that I do a good job, so please keep this in mind, I've prep'd MANY figures in my day, probably tens of thousands so prepping isn't a new experience, but THIS problem is a new experience for me.

I'm having no end of trouble getting my paint figures to accept the paint. The undercoat keeps pulling away from the figure. Here's the prep method I use:

1 - scrub the figures with a toothbrush and detergent in water.
2 - dry the figures thoroughly
3 - trim off excess flash and sculpt poor or damaged areas
4 - drill out hands
5 - scrub the figures again with a toothbrush and detergent in water.
6 - dry figures with a hairdrier
7 - base the figures on my painting platform
8 - undercoat figures in watered down black artist acrylics (Atelier).


At point 8 above, I'm having great difficulty in not getting pinpoints of white metal showing through, and in some cases a several mm wide circle!

I've even subsequent to undercoating gone back and hit those spots with full strength Valejo black! Even THAT doesn't seem to have worked!! The rejected area gets smaller and smaller, but come on - it's taking me hours just to undercoat my damned figures!

I'm at a loss as to what to do. Any thoughts?

I think your problem is that you are over-preparing your figures!
1. trim and file
2. undercoat in standard black (Valejo or whatever), touching up when dry if needs be
3. paint with primary colour etc

[richnz]

get a spray primer

[ravenflight]

get a spray primer

I find spray primers leave a bigger 'unprimed' area than painting by hand.

[MatthewB]

If you are using a painted-on "undercoat" (which, they teach in art-schools is typically a bad idea unless you have the capability of working the undercoat in some fashion. and any diluted brushed on undercoat is going to be a major problem... But back to my main point) on figures that have been worked as much as you seem to be working them, you are going to have a tricky time getting a brushed on undercoat to adhere properly.

All of the brushing you are doing is polishing the surface, especially if you do this twice.

And Acrylics tend to have a rather high-surface tension, which will cause the undercoat to bead-up, and lift out of nooks and crannies of the figure due to the surface tension being too great to allow the paint to get down into the cracks (it will instead try to pull at the closest bit of paint, which will bridge these gaps).

And, acrylic undercoats are kinda a bad idea, as they are much less flexible than any hydrocarbon-based primer. Acrylic paints and undercoats are also more fragile than hydrocarbon-based primers.

You should be using a spray-primer as it is, as it will tend to cover better, and provide a stronger base.

If you are priming metal figures, you can also bake the primer on, to provide a foundation that will not only take paint like a sponge, but it will be as hard as granite. Baking on a primer is as simple as just putting the figures on a tray in an over set to "warm" for about five to ten minutes.

This is something that most people don't know about because it was practiced by only a few people in the early 90s, and they dropped out of gaming for a long time (both were art students in university studying textiles and media applications).

Obviously, you can't bake on primer when using plastic figures, but plastic figures will take hydrocarbon based primers far better than metals, because the plastic's surface is softened a bit by the primer, and then melds with it, to produce an integrated surface when the primer sets

Spray on Primers also obscure less detail than painted on primers; they are faster to apply; they are smoother; they are harder; and they wind up being cheaper, as you use less media per figure than you do with brush on primer.

I know some people will report personal anecdotes that "I primers 10,000 figures with a one ounce bottle of undercoat" or something like that.

But the tend to teach in art schools based upon evidence of people who have tested these things... Painted on undercoats do have their place in some applications. But these applications tend to be in areas where an artist is working with larger more porous surfaces than you will find on a miniature, or surfaces where the paint-on undercoat can be worked-in pretty aggressively to create a very specialized surface.

MB

[philqw78]

This is something that most people don't know about because it was practiced by only a few people in the early 90s, and they dropped out of gaming for a long time (both were art students in university studying textiles and media applications).

I used to do it with conkers. Isn't that the same.

But since they were the only people that ever did it don't you need their permission as surely it is their intellectual property, just like slitherine's rules.

[MatthewB]

Maybe I should have been a bit clearer in the communication.

I only knew of two people who did it, and they didn't invent the process (one of them was a Professor at a college in Texas who taught me the process - he didn't use it on gaming miniatures though). Not to mention that it isn't something that is copyrightable or trade-markable. It is a process that has been in the public domain for over 100 years. Not sure what Slitherine's rules have to do with that.

There could have been other people who did it, as it was taught as a part of a class on materials. But I hadn't heard of anyone doing it with gaming figures from then until now (And, I notice that no one else in many other forums has brought it up).

Conkers are hardly the same thing.

MB

[philqw78]

Perhaps I should have used a smiley

Slitherine are very protective of thier rules. Even though nothing in them is really new.

[MatthewB]

Not to mention that all they can really copyright is the implementation.

The Algorithm they use isn't copyrightable (at least in the USA, and many other nations). Same thing with Software. That's why companies are so secretive when it comes to their algorithms. They can't copyright them, so if the Algorithm gets out, they are screwed (and why few people at Google know the entire search algorithm). I've been to several Conferences where Peter Norvig has stopped mid-sentence as he realized he was about to start talking algorithm.

But FoG is a really great product, and I'm surprised that it hasn't begun to spawn copy-cats of some kind.

MB

[philqw78]

I don't think wargames rules could be classed as an algorithm.

And it is itself a 'copy-cat' Its certainly not original

[ravenflight]

MB

Thanks for your informative response. I find detail is fine on my figures, and have found spray on primers to be a bit hit and miss (always some touch up to do). It also seems that the method I use has been fine for literally decades, and has only in my latest batch been a problem. It made me think that there was something in the brand... like what kind of moulds they were using or what-not. It rally has me baffled.

I'll try a spray primer on the next lot. It doesn't take long and if I leave incovered bits I can easily go over with a hand brushed primer as my normal routine.

We'll see.

[MatthewB]

You do know that using a spray primer generally requires a couple of coats, don't you?

Spray priming generally does one side of the figure at a time (with the figures laid on their side), and then a second coat with the figures upright (or, again, a second coat on each side).

And, again, it is best if immediately after applying each coat, you put the figures in an over set to warm for about 15 to 20 minutes.

The process is a little more involved that brush on undercoating, but provides a better surface for any surface color.

MB

[ravenflight]

You do know that using a spray primer generally requires a couple of coats, don't you?

Even then I find spots where the spray hasn't reached... like the crook of an arm or under a hat etc.

I have tried uncoating with spray from time to time and been dissatisfied. I'm starting to think that I've been a cheapskate though. Because I've had poor results when I've been talked into trying it AGAIN I go to the local dollar shop and buy a tin of paint... and I don't believe it will work... so why waste money on a good product.

So, I'll go to Bunnings on the weekend and buy a can of dulux. If that doesn't work well, I'll go down the trail of priming with thinned oil paint brushed on (as recommended on another thread)

[MatthewB]

Make sure that you turn the figures as you prime them with a spray can.

Don't have them standing up when you prime them.

Lay them down on their sides.

Spray them from each of the four directions at about a 30º angle from the surface they are laid upon (Do not spray directly overhead. always at an angle)

You might need to rotate (turn) then to more than just top/bottom (top and bottom from the direction they are laid upon the priming surface). It might take three or four positions to get good coverage of all surfaces.

After you have sprayed (and baked - after each coat) the figures as they are lying down, then you can stand them up and spray, again at angles, around the figure from a 30º up and down angle (around the figure twice, once pointing the spray up, and the next pointing the spray down).

If you have been diligent at making sure you get the tops and bottoms of the figures when they are laying down, then you shouldn't have to worry about this.

Also... It is better to get multiple thin coats than it is to get one heavy coat. I usually give figures three to four coats on each side, going around the figures at an angle to get undercuts and the tops and bottoms. I can get most of the figures primed this way with just one side, leaving a small gap to prime on the other side when I turn the figures over.


Something else you can do when they are finished, if you still find small gaps: Spray a little bit of spray primer into a cup, and then paint on the areas that have been missed. Don't glom on the primer, because there is already a coating where you think it is a gap. It is just that it is not a very thick coating, and you are comparing it to a wholly covered area, so it looks as if it hasn't been covered. So it will only take a small dot of paint if you are really worried about it.

But if you bake the primer on, then even these areas will appear (after the baking) to be more covered than they appear before baking.

I should make a video of this (I am having problems getting myself to paint minis and this would be a good excuse to show how to spray prime in a way that doesn't leave poorly covered spots). I have seen too many people spray priming like they were priming a car, or a refrigerator (or other large flat surface). They hold the can too close (or too far away), and they point the can at a 90º angle to the surface (If you are priming a car, that's how you should do it, but not a miniature) instead of at sharped angles to the surface of the mini, aiming under cracks and arms. Or they only prime from one direction; not going around the figure to prime it from all directions.

MB

[ShrubMiK]

My 2p worth...and bearing in mind that I would only claim to be an adequate rather than expert painter...

I do minimal prep of the figure - clean up flash, fiddle with/slice metal off the base to get the figure to stand without looking wonky, or even in some cases trying hard to get the fiogure to stand at all. No cleaning - I'm lazy!

I undercoat in black, usually the GW/Citadel Chaos black these days, as it comes i.e. non-thinned. Slather it on generously with a brush, doing either as MB suggested one side at a time and laying the figure on the unpainted side in the meantime, or sometimes (if the figures are quite stable on their bases) doing top half fiorst and then coming back and doing bottom half later. Then inspect it and slather on more where I can see any bare metal, which often happens in the more inaccessible recesses.

The undercoat is also important in that my painting style (again, being lazy) is to leave some of the black showing through, rather than shading later.

My theory (for what it is worth) is that regardless of how well the undercoat bonds to the underlying metal, as long as it provides complete coverage and bonds securely to itself it'll stay in place

And I have (and still regularly use) figures which have not lost their paint in 30 years, so it does work for me. The caveat though is that I do also use a liberal coating of gloss varnish, which might just be a critical backstop, and is not to the taste of everyone.

Some paints definitely don't get the job done, and even some pots of notiionally the same paint turn out not to work very well. but usually I don't have a problem.

[MatthewB]

One thing that I have been looking at recently, is the coverage of paint on surfaces that come to some sort of point, or sharp edge.

I have noticed that some painting and priming styles tend to cause wear at these points.

And priming methods may have something to do with it.

But I haven't had time to investigate this much, due to trying to finish a second and third degree (the first was in Art. These are science and engineering degrees, so just a bit higher demand in rigor than the art degree and taking up more time).

But... Gloss Varnish/sealer definitely is stronger than a dull-coat or semi-gloss finish.

MB

[tadamson]

A thinned acrylic undercoat is part of the problem.

My preference is spray on car primer (cellulose for metal, specialist acrylic for plastic) available from auto shops, Halfords etc...

You can also buy oil based primer paint in DIY or decorators shops if you prefer hand painting. If you do brush on primer, remember to blow or brush off excess primer so it doesn't obscure fine detail.

Tom..