Special Units / „Freak-Units“ / earning SE-Units

[matterhorn]

First off, I’d say AC is a good game.
But what I missed a little was more extraordinary stuff, which brings more variety into the game. I.e. capturable core units, the capturable fort (aux) in the dunkirk-scenario, the Fritz-X-weapon in an italian scenario, special units like the Jagdtiger-unit in the battle of the bulge, ...
O.k. you got the tourtoise in the last scenario and two heavy cruisers with range heroes and one V2, but I think that was all in the course of the whole campaign.

Over the course of GC ’39 – ’45 there had been a lot and good ideas to bring variety into the game.

I understand the point, that the allies didn’t use captured stuff in such a scale as the germans or soviets did, but why not creating some “freak units” like the raiders (if pacific corps ever will emerge / in Pacific General there had been an american raider-unit with dogs, that barked, when the unit moved ) or special US-airborne-units with mohawk haircuts (screaming eagles - for the european theatre) or some decent NKVD-troops (in the case of a soviet corps).
Not to buy, but as rare extra units. For future games that would be nice.

There had been SE-units in AC, which is cool, but it’s not the same as for example some very special Fritz-X (aux-unit) or the mentioned Jagdtiger unit (core-unit). (The Jagdtiger unit had a special hero to make it more powerful. And if anyone thinks it is too powerful: just disband it.)

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Another point: randomization of SE-units.
I’m not such a big fan of randomized SE-units. I would prefer to “earn” SE-units.
For example: you get a green SE-unit and have to bring them up to 100+ exp in one scenario to gain permanent command over that unit. Or you have to collect 20 kills (strength-points) in one scenario. There could be many tasks to fulfill…

[KeldorKatarn]

I think this entire 'bonus units' system, no matter how implemented, captured units, SE units, special hero units, are by far the worst part of the entire game design. They destabilize, unbalance and ruin the main design idea: the player building his own core.
All these extra units, no matter how you gain them or how they are awarded are an incredibly bad idea in my opinion and if they had never been there I think it would be a better game.

[Anfield]

I have to agree, the SE units in AC are not that great. I get nothing but fighters with an odd infantry once and a while. Course you cant have to many fighters haha and you can always cash them in for prestige. However id like to see SE units can be anything in the pool of equipment. Or have them come with a hero and some cool traits, then be more keen to keep em. Now if AC was a DLC I might be more excited to get the free units, and hope they come out with a DLC for that soon. Love AC, SE so far, can take it or leave in that one.

[KeldorKatarn]

I would rather like they weren't in at all. I don't like free units being pushed at me. I'd rather take prestige for certain accomblishments, but I'd like to decide myself which units I want thank you. The SE units are not THAT bad, since it's mostly infantry, tanks and fighters at a very limited number, and those you're gonna need at some point anyway and you usually get them when you would buy them.. but captured and free heroes on top of that whcih even take a core slot away?... I think that's a bit much freebee stuff

[Razz1]

Bonus units are not counted as your core.

[Naxor]

I would rather like they weren't in at all. I don't like free units being pushed at me. I'd rather take prestige for certain accomblishments, but I'd like to decide myself which units I want thank you. The SE units are not THAT bad, since it's mostly infantry, tanks and fighters at a very limited number, and those you're gonna need at some point anyway and you usually get them when you would buy them.. but captured and free heroes on top of that whcih even take a core slot away?... I think that's a bit much freebee stuff

I agree. SE units with their cool camouflage and +1 attack bonus isn't that bad. But it feels kinda pointless using elite reinforcements and rising your unit experience level if you get super units for free.

[Tarrak]

I see why someone would not like SE units, the special heroes or captured units but why not just ignore them in that case and simply disband them? If you want to consider them as additional prestige source disband them in the next deployment phase; if even that is to much for you just disband them instant. Problem solved.

[nikivdd]

I'm more in favor of a special skill appropriate to the unit class, in analogy with Panzer General II, than with the current hero system.

I like the concept of SE units but it could be improved. I would actually prefer a "special and unpurchaseable" unit that was built in small numbers (like the Sturm 33B) than a mass produced Pz III.

I finally bought the Grand Campaign, it was long overdue. The new "super" units makes the scenarios a lot easier than before (the Norway scenarios turned out as simple walkovers). Out of curiosity i will play the whole DLC East to witness further effects. I do plan to restart the GC, with these units disbanded when they are introduced and the deduct the prestige awarded. I'm now halfway DLC '40 and while betatesting, i had a much harder time then now.

A hint for those who do not want SE units at all. You either disband them (but i think you get prestige then) or you just tweak the e-file and place ## in front of their ID numbers.

[Tarrak]

A hint for those who do not want SE units at all. You either disband them (but i think you get prestige then) or you just tweak the e-file and place ## in front of their ID numbers.

I am 99,99% sure if you disband them outside of the deployment phase you do not get the prestige. Prestige for disbanding units is only awarded during the deployment phase.

[KeldorKatarn]

The way I would change it: Give the player choice. Meaning:

SE Units: Instead of giving the unit to the player, the player earns an SE unit slot. he can then 'buy' one SE unit for free out of those units that are available at that point. No throwing an infantry at me when I don't want one or other stuff. That would also give the player the possibility to forge a nice SE-type division or something by being able to buy artillery, recon and other stuff as well. Stuff that might be more welcome as a unit that doesn't take up a core slot.
One could even go as far as creating very rare SE units, by giving your units the ability to get the elite status by doing something very special. They automatically get the camo and no longer use up a core slot. That would increase the roleplay element and make you even more proud of that 'elite' unit. Because then it really is elite and not just some 'gift' by the OKW.

Captured units: You win those tanks, not a unit since they have no drivers, just the tanks. Meaning in the next deployment phase you are allowed to upgrade one of your units into that foreign version tank/recon/whatever. But only one.
(Can't tell you how often I wanted to keep that KV tank for a while but I already had all the tanks that I needed and using that instead of my core tank would mean less XP for my regular tank. if we have the equipment and I can upgrade to other stuff, why can't I just upgrade to that tank? I don't want a new crew, I just want the tank.

Special heroes: Either make them auxiliary units only which can appear again in some late scenarios if you let them survive the last scenario they appeared in, OR make those special heroes true heroes, meaning your units can get them if they get a hero in that specific scenario and are of the right unit type. That means they are a lot more rare and so much more special since YOUR units get them, not some free unit that is being thrown at you and takes up a core slot that you don't want to waste since your core is already exactly as you want it to be.

[boredatwork]

I just view my "SE" units as regular units with different camouflage for variety. Consequently for the last few GC39-45E I've played I've just used the "ALL EQP" cheat to buy all my SE units (3 tanks, 3 Inf, 3 Artillery, 1 AT, 1 Rec, and 1 Flak Pz) in early 1940. I then use the "CORE +/-" cheat to adjust the number of regular core slots based upon whether I want to deploy the whole SE division or none of it while keeping the total core deployed size inline with what the scenario designer intended.

[macattack]

I'm more in favor of a special skill appropriate to the unit class, in analogy with Panzer General II, than with the current hero system.

I like the concept of SE units but it could be improved. I would actually prefer a "special and unpurchaseable" unit that was built in small numbers (like the Sturm 33B) than a mass produced Pz III.

I finally bought the Grand Campaign, it was long overdue. The new "super" units makes the scenarios a lot easier than before (the Norway scenarios turned out as simple walkovers). Out of curiosity i will play the whole DLC East to witness further effects. I do plan to restart the GC, with these units disbanded when they are introduced and the deduct the prestige awarded. I'm now halfway DLC '40 and while betatesting, i had a much harder time then now.

A hint for those who do not want SE units at all. You either disband them (but i think you get prestige then) or you just tweak the e-file and place ## in front of their ID numbers.

I like the idea of special and unpurchaseable. I would add that the unit is only has a chance of being available during specific parts of the campaign. This will add to replayability.

[Lut]

It would be good not to allow special units - like Oleh Dir - to gain additional 2 heros on top of the special one.

My Oleh Dir unit got : +3 Attack and +2 Attack
=> clearly too much for all the enemy can throw at me

[matterhorn]

As Tarrak said, if you don’t like hero units, SE-units or captured units, disband them.

And yes, I’ve disbanded several captured units in the east and I’ve disbanded some of the new hero units while replaying GC `39 - `45.

Still I like the concept and I like the freedom to chose, so I use some captured units and disband others and I use some hero units and disband some others.
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First, it’s about future games.

Bringing more color into the game doesn’t necessarily mean, that you have to create super units.
For example you could give NKVD-troops the same stats as engineers with slightly(!) improved defense values.
You could then adapt the gameplay in such a way, that NKVD-troops will NEVER retreat or surrender. Those boys were notorious for being very tough. The icon could show a little red star at the bottom, indicating that here are standing some soldiers that will not quit.
Being rare and non-purchasable they could be core or aux. And I would appreciate it, if the AI were using such units too (when you play standalone scenarios and chose the other side).
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I find Keldorkatarn’s suggestion for a SE-unit slot in which you can freely chose your unit (and unit type) is a really good idea.

[Brindlebane]

I'm not a big fan of the free SE units.I normally disband them in the next deployment phase.Mind you there is the odd captured unit which is tempting to keep,as it gives that slight edge that you can't get with your own units.It's great to have the choice though either way.

[KeldorKatarn]

I didn't like the captured units either. I mean yeah the odd KV1 was nice but... even though completely unhistorical (captured stuff was mostly used behind the lines for occupation patrols and police duity in the occupied territories or re-used for stuff like self propelled guns and such, and even then not at unit size numbers) it is kinda cool. But I would prefer if the captured unit would be added to my 'store' instead of spawn on my map. When I already have 6 tanks with heroes and nice experience and then I get a 7th tank... what if I don't want a 7th tank? what if I planned my core with 6 tank units. I don't want to waste an additional core slot so what now? I'd really like to use the tank, but am I supposed to disband one of my experienced ones that I may have had since Poland? Nah... It would be cool if it got added to the store as a one time only purchase so I could either buy it for free as a new unit in case I really want a new one, OR upgrade one of my existing units to it. I mean what did we capture here? We captured tanks, not a tank regiment with drivers, crews, maintenance and all that. We just got the machines. So why do I capture a fully functional regiment, bataillon or whatever? doesn't make sense. If I get those machines and they're better than what I got... I may not want green troops from Germany's next draft youth in there, I want my experts in them, so I want to upgrade. I MAY want fresh crews if I need a new tank, but that should be up to me. It's even worse that you can actually capture the city with the equipment but it only spawns in the next turn, so if you do that in the last turn, you don't get the tanks... if it got simply added to the store, you could get it at your leasure and no spawn problems (same thing if there's no free hex next to the spawn location) AND the possibility to upgrade existing units to that equipment. I think that would be a MUCH better solution.
I mean I might actually have used those T34s and KV1s a LOT more if they had been given to me in the store instead of as actual units. I got most of them when I already had 4 or 5 tanks. I didn't want to leave those at home and collect dust, I bought those and kept them through all those fights in poland and france, they're dear to me. I'm not gonna leave them at home in favor of some captured stuff that might be nice, but... If I could have upgraded my units TO them, I would have used nearly all of them at some point or another. Like this I used maybe one per scenario and that was it. The rest sat in my core reserve collecting dust and I looked at them for an entire ingame year with a teary eye thinking: I so wish I could use these but I'll be damned if I leave my trusty forces at home because of that. As an upgrade option I would have used them right away. In the end I disbanded them all. Which is kinda sad, since some of them had actually gotten medals in those few scenarios that I used them in and some equipment was really nice and also they kinda reminded me what I had to go through to get them. But yeah. In Stalingrad I think there's a russian recon units somewhere. Well that#s again sad. I already have 2 recon units (who doesn't at '42) and I usually don't lose them, and even if, I'm playing now with reform units active. So I'm not gonna have the chance to use that recon unit, which is sad. If I could upgrade to it, I would 100% use it, if only for the fun of it and testing it out. I have the prestige to upgrade back later if I don't like it. But I would really like to be able to upgrade TO it once. Sadly...
That way it's really not a benefit anymore to get that kind of stuff near the end. Especially in '42 and '43. By that time I already have a very functional core with even a few reserve units that I use whenever needed. I don't need any additional units anymore. So the incentive to actually try and tet them is... meh. I swim in prestige despite playing at FieldMarshall (switched to rommel now) so I don't really need the disbanding prestige either, and it's kinda sad to disband them anyway. Ah well.

Same with the super heroes. I don't want additional units that late in the game. They'll collect dust in my reserve, I don#t have the slots to deploy them, and I'm not going to leave one of MY units at home in favor of them. If they were auxiliaries for that scenario... fine. If they were special heros that one of my units can get in that scenario only, even better. That would be a real treat to get one of those rare heroes on my units (downside, a lot of units may already have 3 heroes by '42, and certainly by '43). So yeah...

[captainjack]

It is very much a matter of taste. I can understand why people would not like special hero units, though I keep mine. Generally they aren't that much stronger than you can earn in normal course of things (I've had +6 attack on a strategic bomber, +2 spotting on a Recon vehicle and +5 defence on a Churchill and on a tiger just in normal play). It's true that Rudel and possibly Oleh Dir are exceptions, but if you don't like them you can always disband the hero unit and replace it with an identical hero-free standard unit (using cheat codes to bring up STR and exp to the same levels the hero came with if you want). Quite unplanned, I appear to have developed a different approach to reforming hero units - if I lose a standard hero unit I will usually reform it, but if I lose a gifted hero unit I usually don't.

I like captured units, in the early DLCs, to the extent that I generally won't buy tanks and rely on capturing them. Somau, Char and Matildas (if they can keep up) are generally better armoured and hit about as hard as the best German tanks available in1940 and early 41. When they get outclassed in 1943, they can go into the reserve for upgrading into tigers and panthers in 1944 and 1945 or for emergency prestige.

I think that captured units and bonus units are handled best in Afrika Korps. The good close defence and SA of Grants and Shermans provides additional variety, and the speed of crusaders has to be weighed against their inabilty to take a hit. Also, it's very easy to run out of prestige in AK, so you can then be faced with the desire to keep useful tanks that you could sell for enough prestige for critical upgrades and repairs. I also like teh extra variety of SE units and teh way that some specials are awarded as a result of meeting an objective. After playing AK,I found AC a bit flat in this respect. It has a limited range of SE units that usually come in too late to develop exnough experience to be really useful, combined with a complete lack of captured units, and while the prestige bonus for destroying objectives has appeal, I'd prefer to be in to win an SE commando unit/experimental Deacon/6dr portee/italian tankette.

[KeldorKatarn]

In Africa Korps I kept most of them. Especially that spitfire from Malta was a welcome addition

[dks]

just finished playing Minsk 41 at col v1.21

as far as the special units are concerned for me, I have disbanded them in the past just to open up slots and keep the I want my own core units choices.

this time around I decided to keep and use them such as the Ju 87B Second Lieutenant Rudel.

at Minsk 41 I know have two Rudel's! game gave me a second Ju 87B named Hans-Ulrich Rudel but with the very strong stats!

my strudel now has two Rudel's

both are flying Bf 110D's. neat!

so my question is....why didn't my first Rudel be replaced with good old Hans? are they cousins or something

anyway....is this a bug or what. two hero units the same is a bit much for some but I'll keep both them cousins

before I forget....I upgraded Rudel to a Bf 110C first chance back at Poland. also they both carried over in my core to Smolensk 41.

[Horseman]

just finished playing Minsk 41 at col v1.21

as far as the special units are concerned for me, I have disbanded them in the past just to open up slots and keep the I want my own core units choices.

this time around I decided to keep and use them such as the Ju 87B Second Lieutenant Rudel.

at Minsk 41 I know have two Rudel's! game gave me a second Ju 87B named Hans-Ulrich Rudel but with the very strong stats!

my strudel now has two Rudel's

both are flying Bf 110D's. neat!

so my question is....why didn't my first Rudel be replaced with good old Hans? are they cousins or something

anyway....is this a bug or what. two hero units the same is a bit much for some but I'll keep both them cousins

before I forget....I upgraded Rudel to a Bf 110C first chance back at Poland. also they both carried over in my core to Smolensk 41.

Well the 1st Rudel is not too great (actually makes the unit he is with worse except as a recon plane!) So its expected you only keep him around to get his 2nd (and elite!!) incarnation and then disband....its a reward for carrying a not so great unit around for 2 whole DLC (39-40) But of course once you've played through once you know to keep the unit in reserve until the scenario you need to use him to get super Rudel