Too soon to start the kids on Panzer Corps?

[PantherII]

the most infamous raid was probably the Dredsen Raid.... so much irreplaceable culture and history lost in a single night. Allied commanders saw what they did claiming the Germans had lots of arms in the city. Instead innocent people were killed. I bet they killed more PEOPLE than SOLDIERS

And? It was war. It was a matter of getting Germany to surrender, by smashing big cities. A tactic that was invented by the Germans 4 years earlier.

[PantherII]

As far as i remember the british and american bombardments of french cities since '44 were
much more "effective" than anything the Luftwaffe ever "achieved" there...
And as far as i know the Luftwaffe "only" erased Coventry, Rotterdam and one city i can't remember right now
in contrast to allied AF annihilating virtually EVERY noticable german city.

They had better and more effective planes.

[Renemesis]

Never too young to start your kids on Panzer Corps! They should all be born with their individual mod.

[PantherII]

Since when do you drop fire bombs on soliders. Since when do you build test cities in the US with materials informers told you are being used most in German households so they burn better. Since when do you bomb in two waves, first fire, then explosives several minutes later to disrupt the fire departments help to make sure everybody burns real good.

I'm not going to say Germany didn't do horribly things in eastern europe but saying the Germans rased every city they've been to is just a big fat lie. what has been done in the allied bombing campaign to germany is just as huge a war crime as hiroshima and nagasaki was and nobody should tell me the US wouldn't have dropped a nuclear bomb in the middle of dresden or nuremberg if the war had still been going on. Those were war crimes against nothing but civilians. Yes russia and Poland sufferend a lot, especially from the holocaust. That doesn't make flattening every german city and purposely trying to kill as many civilians as possible all nice an peachy.

Germany has done a lot of work to educate about the holocaust, to pay their dues and make sure stuff like that never happens again. Every German is very much aware what has been done in German name back then. I wish some of the victorious nations would reflect a bit more about the things they have done. I rarerly see any british or american be appologetic about these bombing raids or the atomic bombs. (Maybe then stuff like napalm, Agent Orange, torture camps in iraq and guantanamo concentration camps would not have happened you know) The majority still seems to think that "had to be done" to end the war. Especially in Germany's case it's already accepted historial fact that these raids did nothing but strengthening the regime and made a surrender even less likely and possibly dragged out the war an entire year. When your regime's propaganda tells you that the allies want to destroy Germany and all Germans completely, so there's no possibility for a peace, then such crap is much easier to believe when you experience stuff like Dresden, get information about stuff like a Morgenthau plan, comments that the Germans might have to be sterilized and hear in the news that the only peace considered would be an "unconditional surrender", something I cannot understand to this day since it dragged out the war for at least one more unnecessary year which gave the USSR time enough to completely occupy eastern europe and cause the misery of soviet occupation behind the iron curtain for 40 years.
This incredible hate for everything German I can still feel to this day, no matter where I go. And I've never understood that. The holocaust alone doesn't explain that.Neither does it explain why Germany is still being used as the default nazi enemy in media no matter where you look, even in science fiction for crying out loud, over half a century after that war ended.Pretty sick if you ask me.

No, its not a war crime. It is war.
If Germany had the capacity and resources to do to London, what the allies did to Dresden and several other cities they would have done so. But they didnt have the planes or bombs to deliver such damage in one night. But if they had, they certainly would have.
Same with atomic bomb, it saved thousands of lifes. Imagine how many lives an invasion of mainland Japan would have cost. Especially allied lives. I bet even the Japanese would have lost more soldiers and civilians than the 2 bombs cost combined.
Of course they would have dropped the A-bomb in Berlin if they had the chanse to do so. Was it a crime in 1945? No, it wasnt.

In world war 2 it was a valid tactic to try and bomb its enemy into surrendering by targetting civilian targets. With the exception of the A-bomb, it wasnt very effective and never worked.
The British/RAF was on their knees in the battle of britain when Germany stopped hitting airfields and switched focus to cities.

You know, in panzer general you could bomb cities and the enemy would lose prestige. That tactic was removed from panzer corps.

[KeldorKatarn]

You know you better never try saying that to my face, You wouldn't like what'd happen...

[BiteNibbleChomp]

You know, in panzer general you could bomb cities and the enemy would lose prestige. That tactic was removed from panzer corps.

I think bombing enemy cities with strategic bombers take some prestiges off of them (maybe 10?) And I also think it would be better to fight in ww1 -> it wasn't to hard for a soldier to hide in his trench (with a gas mask on if needed) - in ww2 they couldn't just do that!

- BNC

[PantherII]

You know you better never try saying that to my face, You wouldn't like what'd happen...

Say what?

And you have no idea who i am.

[KeldorKatarn]

Anybody who considers war crimes ligit ways of fighting is someone I don't really need to know anything more about. That's it for me in this thread. Couldn't be more disgusted right now.

[PantherII]

Anybody who considers war crimes ligit ways of fighting is someone I don't really need to know anything more about. That's it for me in this thread. Couldn't be more disgusted right now.

Bombing the enemy is not a war crime.

[Tarrak]

Calm down people please. The topic discussed here is quite difficult and a touchy subject in the best time and you both seems to be on the edge now. Please take a deep breath and keep discussion civil or i will have to lock the topic.

[KeldorKatarn]

Anybody who considers war crimes ligit ways of fighting is someone I don't really need to know anything more about. That's it for me in this thread. Couldn't be more disgusted right now.

Bombing the enemy is not a war crime.

Bombing women and children in their homes IS a war crime you asshole. And yes go ahead and lock this because I sure as hell won't keep it civil if someone calls the Dresden bombardment ligit.

[Tarrak]

You can disagree with his opinion tho, which btw i personally do to, without calling him names.

[KeldorKatarn]

No, sorry, but saying stuff like that is like me saying "Hey the Holocaust was good and Jews should be killed". Would you accept that as MY opinion? I guess not. Neither do I. It's disgusting and criminal. And if it wasn't germans who were the victims but if it was about the attacks on London, the holocaust or 9/11 he'd get kicked in his nuts by some moderator right away. But because it's about german civilians being massacred it's "HIs oppinion" and I'm supposed to shut up? The hell I will.

[durangokid]

You know you better never try saying that to my face, You wouldn't like what'd happen...

KeldorKatarn, who was making a valid and interesting argument, would be well advised not to make pointless and vague threats on the forum. It spoils discussion and usually ends with the post being closed.

I just finished the Max Hastings book, Bomber Command. He discussed the validity of the allied bombing policy and came to the conclusion, as do most historians, that it was ill conceived and until the allies achieved air superiority, badly executed.

As far as allied war cimes were concerned, it always comes down to the simple fact that the victors hold the trials. It doesn't mean the allies were crime free, only that anyone in any position of authority wasn't inclined to prosecute.

While it's a sensitive subject, it's well worth keeping the discussion going. Comments?

[KeldorKatarn]

Well past the discussion point. I wonder how easy all this community and moderators would be to anyone saying that 9/11 was a ligit way of fighting the US. Or hey, let's drop a nuclear bomb on New York shall be. Let's see who think's it's all fine and peachy after that.
It's a ********* double standard and either this forum has a policy against ligitimizing war crimes and terror of ALL sides or it doesn't. If it doesn't I guess this community can live without me.
I certainly won't spend time here if it is ok so say "hey killing hundreds of thousand of German families in their homes was all cool you know"

[PantherII]

Anybody who considers war crimes ligit ways of fighting is someone I don't really need to know anything more about. That's it for me in this thread. Couldn't be more disgusted right now.

Bombing the enemy is not a war crime.

Bombing women and children in their homes IS a war crime you asshole. And yes go ahead and lock this because I sure as hell won't keep it civil if someone calls the Dresden bombardment ligit.

You know the difference between bombing London in 1940 and Dresden in 1945? Or Hiroshima for that matter.
The tools they used to do it.
Doing so WAS a legit tactic in world war 2. All sides intentionally targetted civilians with their bombers. It wasnt a very effective tactic untill the A-bomb came.

As for 9/11. There was no decleration of war. The hijackers did not wear a uniform of a known enemy and so on. Its called an act of terrorism.

[KeldorKatarn]

Alright: @Mods: Either he goes or I go.

[Tarrak]

You know the difference between bombing London in 1940 and Dresden in 1945? Or Hiroshima for that matter.
The tools they used to do it.
Doing so WAS a legit tactic in world war 2. All sides intentionally targetted civilians with their bombers. It wasnt a very effective tactic untill the A-bomb came.

As for 9/11. There was no decleration of war. The hijackers did not wear a uniform of a known enemy and so on. Its called an act of terrorism.

Only because something was widespread and common used doesn't make it a valid and even less legit but as someone already mentioned the victor holds the trial.

Anyway this topic is degrading to fast for my liking and it will not lead to any conclusion nor a fruitful discussion on the current mood present here. I am locking the topic down before it escalates totally out of control.