Pionere vs Grenadier?

[HeresiarchQin]

It seems that except for the 1 extra initiative and 25 prestige cheaper, the Grenadiers are completely outshadowed by Pioneers. Pioneers have ignore entrentchment + fortkiller + minesweeper, while Grenadiers have nothing. Pioneers' traits make them overwhelmingly useful in almost every situation.

It seems to me that in case that I have sufficient spare prestige, it'll be so much better to use only Pioneers (plus a couple paratroopers) then using any Grenadiers at all. Which seems weird to me because I thought Pioneers are supposed to have supportive roles while normal infantries were the bulk of the foot soldiers.

My point is: right now there seems to have very little incentive to use Grenadiers as Pioneers have the almost exactly the same stats but possess superior traits.

[timek28]

My experience is that grenadiers are much better in defensive role then pioneers. Especially SE grenadiers. They have best stats of all infantry in the game. I think they have SA of 8 and HA of 8 too. Basically any unit that attacks entrenched experienced elite grenadiers will get wasted. On the other hand pioneers are good for fortifications as you said, so IMO they have a slight edge on offense when entrenched enemy is attacked. But again I have seen SE grenadiers destroying fortifications with the same ease as pioneers.

[best75]

The traits the pioneer have are really only useful on the offensive so it might be better to buy grenadiers when defending

[HeresiarchQin]

SE units aren't put into the discussion as they're special bonus units, and they can't be upgraded to Pioneres anyway. I would do that if it's possible just to get those traits.

Even if defending, pioneers works almost the same as grenadiers, because their stats are highly similar. And since they are not exactly expensive, I would gladly trade that 1 extra initiative for the powerful ignore entrenchments trait.

I took a look at the 43 infantries and they're better balanced: 43 Grenadiers have 1 extra hard attack and 2 extra initiative compared to 43 pioneers. that would make the grenadiers much more attractive to use especially in open terrain or against hard targets.

[timek28]

I took a look at the 43 infantries and they're better balanced: 43 Grenadiers have 1 extra hard attack and 2 extra initiative compared to 43 pioneers. that would make the grenadiers much more attractive to use especially in open terrain or against hard targets.

Exactly, I was thinking about 43 units. Before 43 I would say pioneers are maybe the better option. But from 43, better hard attack and 2 extra initiative makes grenadiers the toughest infantry out there (maybe rangers are only comparable to them). However from 43 on the amount and quality of enemy armor becomes so large and good that no matter which infantry you put against them it wont help too much, which is bad. However in hard urban battles 43 grenadiers can be very valuable.

[testarossa]

I concur that Grenadiers appear to be tougher on defense, while pioneers have advantages on attack vs entrenched targets. One other little nuisance is that the AI seem to preferentially target the pioneers with artillery, tending to wear them down.

[Egge]

Pionieers may have some extra traits but when exactly do you need them?
I simply bypass mine fields and if I really must clear them I use auxiliary units to do so. Also I hardly ever attack entrenched units because I usually don't attack at all if the opposing unit hasn't been completely supressed yet.

I still think that regular infantry with its extra movement point is the best unit. The extra movement point is well worth the slightly lower combat value.
And don't underestimate the bang per buck factor. Even small differences matter, in particular in multiplayer scenarios.

[endur]

As others said, offense (Pionere) versus defense (Grenadier). Keeping in mind that most of the campaigns versus the AI include many offensive scenarios.

I love Pioneres. In the DLC, one of my first upgrades is to upgrade the Oleh Dir hero to a Pionere. In the 39-41 scenarios, the Oleh unit will often operate on its own, clearing out isolated enemy units.

Having said that, I have gotten to like the regular infantry and the mountain troops. Nowadays, I usually buy the regular infantry and mountain troops without vehicles, and only buy vehicles for move 2 units (engineer, grenadier, bridge units).

In some of the campaigns, I am given a starting force that includes regular infantry with vehicles. Those are infantry units I consider for upgrading to grenadier, etc.