Eventual Scope of 40k IP

[Remairem]

I have been a fan of the 40K IP for 20+ years now. I started on the table top and migrated to pc gaming. I recently went through all of the 40k released games and I have to my chagrin played them all.

I wanted to post this topic because I would like to see something happen for the IP that has yet to take place. I would like to increase the scope to what the game or more to the point the culture or the history truly calls for. There will always be reasons to do something and not to do something. Long story short the scope should be broadened. The scope should be that of the known universe, showing the continual struggle with chaos as well as the known and unknown. Perhaps this is expanded to a more Epic aspect where we combine space strategy and ground strategy. A Sword of the Stars combination with a potentially better DOW grounding pounding experience. DOW is an example, that style is now overplayed, the engine and gameplay styles would need some serious revamping before anything new gets pushed out. The conversation about how to get there can stay up in the air, the point being I feel that the 40K IP really needs this scope expansion as it harnesses everything that the Space Marines are fighting for. I would be happy to expand more on this thought, though I have to run and I wanted to get this though out before I leave work.

I am thrilled to see another 40K product being supported. I will probably purchase it as I have done with all of the previous incarnations. Now knowing that Slitherine is holding onto the IP this will be the determining factor to my purchasing of Pandora as I am also a fan of Alpha Centari.

Thanks for all of the work everyone associated with this publisher is putting out. I will now be following a couple new companies.

Thanks!

[Skanvak]

What is the meaning of "IP"?

I guess it would be nice to define abbreviation before using them.

[sshnuke]

IP means intellectual property

It's a law term

For example, Warhammer 40000 is an IP

[Skanvak]

Thank you, that was really not obvious.

Yes, I hope that the scope will be more than just ork and Imperium. I have already say that I would like a battlefield version of WH40K. Of course adding, if we can have a good version of battlefield Gothic that would be nice.

[Lynata]

An expansion in scope would be nice, though personally I would rather see it applied to factions rather than game mechanics. The franchise feels "trapped" in a permanent focus on the Space Marines (something that, ironically, even the opening poster could not escape from), with everything else being more like a sort of "add-on". The trouble is that this seems like a financially comfortable trap to be in, because judging from sales the Space Marines really are the most popular army of the game. On the other hand, one could argue that other armies might grow more popular if they'd only see more support from the company - something they do not receive because they are not as popular. Vicious cycle.

It's a real shame that a universe that consists of so many different facets, which holds so much potential, often tends to get simplified into "Marines vs X".

And I'm not even just talking about the very low profile my own favourite army - the Sisters of Battle - has when it comes to novels or video games, but also stuff like, say, a PC version of Necromunda where you're managing a hive gang. Or Skanvak's idea of Battlefleet Gothic. Or something entirely new that somehow ties into the background.

Would such experiments be a smart idea? I'm not sure. If Space Marines truly sell as well as they did back then, perhaps they really just have this many fans, and it seems like a no-brainer to focus on catering to them. I guess it's just a bit sad that this also means that the franchise as a whole feels a bit stagnant.

I have already say that I would like a battlefield version of WH40K.

Well, Eternal Crusade is probably going to be something like that.

[Skanvak]

No, Eternal conflict is a MMORPG, even if I can like it a lot and bring my clan on it (La maison des Drakkens) it will not be like battlefield academy (I can bet on it). According to the site it is an action game where you play as one of the... So we still need a battlefield version. That was is really needed! (The battle fleet gothic too of course if it is turn base).

[sshnuke]

Actually Eternal Crusade is not traditional MMORPG

If you read those interviews of the devs you will see their aim is to make a Space Marine style Planetside 2

In many interviews the devs talked again and again about why Planetside 2 is not so good and how better will their new game be

[sshnuke]

Till now there are so many 40k games under construction

Slitherine's Panzercorps-like wargame Armageddon

Behaviour's Space Marine-style Planetside 2-like MMO Eternal Crusade

Herocraft's free-2-play collectible card game Space Wolf (though it's actually a mobile game but it will still have a PC version)

Focus' FPS game using UE4 engine, Space Hulk Deathwing

and Full Control's Space Hulk already come out (it is different from the FPS game above)

also there are 2 unannounced titles: a space marine-theme mobile game by roadhouse and a free-2-play social titan game by zattika

[Skanvak]

Indeed, Games Workshop seem to have change its policy of renting the licence to only one company, look like they rent is to a lot of company to see which one does the best.

[sshnuke]

A new 40k mobile game just announced
https://www.facebook.com/StormOfVengeance

And Zattikka has already gone into administration in August

[Galdred]

Do you consider doing a remake of Final Liberation or Chaos Gate?
These were my all time favorite 40K games.

Chaos Gate only lacked some kind of free form campaign (like in XCOM or Jagged Alliance), more varied opponents to be perfect, and Final Liberation needed a better combat model (closer from Steel Panthers, with hex instead of squares for starter), and higher difficulty (through having an upkeep cost, or more expansive Titans?).
The new XCOM seems to indicate there could be a good demand for a squad level tactical game with Space Marines

Both had much more character than Rites of War IMO (which was still good, but nowhere near unforgettable IMO).

[Rudankort]

We do not think of Armageddon as a remake of any past games. However, it would be interesting to know what makes Final Liberation and Chaos Gate your all time favorite 40K games? What things do you think made these so great? You mention "character", but it is a bit vague.

PS. I don't think squad level would be fitting to communicate the epic scale of Armageddon wars. Other conflicts from W40k universe would be more suited for such a game.

[Galdred]

I meant a spiritual successor more than a remake. By character, I meant that the direct 1:1 scale used allowed units to perform more or less as they do in lore (Epic 40K for Final Liberation, and Warhammer 40K for Chaos Gate, even through the rulesets were different), helping build a stronger narrative (because your imagination did not have too much work to do to get a representation of what was happening in the battles described by the game).

Chaos Gate "character" came from the fact that each of your Space Marines had distinct stats, and could die (especially on Mighty Hero difficulty setting), making you have a direct "bond" to your units as in the latest XCOM.
The few screenshots we see now seem to indicate a more abstract game (which is not a bad thing in itself, especially if the game focus on the bigger picture), in the spirit of Rites of War.

In Final Liberation, the game was much less personal, as you didn't have such connection to your roster, but the scale still allowed you to make a clear mental picture of what was happening on the battlefield. It was a good scale for representing Titan and vehicle combat. The strategic campaign was an interesting way to represent a planet wide campaign, even though it was too easy.

As we know very little about the game, I obviously cannot make any comment about the way things will work in Armageddon, but the problem I had with Rites of War compared to its 2 older brothers was that you could not tell whether the units you controlled were platoons, companies, battalions or larger (especially since you had very specialized units like aspect warriors, that would make little sense at the battalion level), as the level of abstraction made it very confusing (especially with all the ranged infantry units having a range above 1) : As you had no indication of the size of the battlefield, of what casualties represented, of the size of your units, you lacked elements to build a strong narrative to what was really happening the game. The game was a good tactical puzzle, but the level of abstraction made the WH40K elements less relevant than for the previous SSI games for me.

[Skanvak]

Final Liberation is one of my all time best. Why, because it is a squad level game exatly the same as the game Space Marine/Epic (5mm) that allow to paly titans in battle. It used the same rule as the tabletop game. So we have the best of both world. Final liberation looks like (but rules are different) Battlefield Academy. That why some of us would like a WH40K battlefield it is because it would gave us a type of game we experienced on the table.

Point is we like game that give us the same experience as the tabletop/figurine game. I think that is the point. We look for a computer version of the game we like. Not a foreign game in this universe (though we will propably play it and may be like it. It will always be second in our taste. Look at space Hulk. They did the good choice : first a fidel adaptation of the board game then we go to expand the game (eventually a fps will be made) BUT first they made a computer adaptation of the boardgame.

I hope that helped.

[Galdred]

The rules don't have to be a direct port, though : Final Liberation rules were closer from the Steel Panthers ruleset than the Epic 40K ruleset, but SSI made an awesome job of translating Epic rules into their own computer rules, and most units behaved exactly as someone playin the miniature games would have expected (Among the important differences were that casualties were individual among a squad, instead of wiping a squad in a single shot, penetration and armor were handled differently, and the number of actions too : You were allowed 2 shots if moving 0 or 1 tile, and 1 otherwise) . Only the close combat rules were strictly the same as the miniature rules.
The same can be said for Chaos Gate, whose ruleset was based on Soldiers at war, but felt very close from warhammer 40K in spirit, despite being much more complex.

[Skanvak]

To add to the brainstorming, I think that ans epic are tactical game. The wargame and abstract games of GW have less success. Which mean that the public of GW like tactical game with figure like less abstract game. Panzer general clone are a bit abstract. They are a different games.

[vadersson]

Wow, I joined the forum just to add to this thread.

First let me join the chorus of people proclaiming Final Liberation and Chaos Gate as the best Warhammer 40,000 computer games ever. (Though, the new Space Hulk game based on the board game is REALLY good.) I will try and discuss why each was good.

Chaos Gate
1. It was a really well done squad based, tactical, turn based game. I never played the old X-Com games, but this game was the ultimate definition of a squad based game to me. I found it both fun and challenging.
2. Good variety. While you only played Space Marines (and only fought Chaos) it had a good selection of units, weapons, load outs, and missions.
3. Serious 40K personality. This was huge and part of what sucked me into 40K. The Marines had some awesome lines. The Chaos guys talked back. It really felt like the Warhammer universe. "You will be cleansed!"

Final Liberation
1. Excellent turn based game. Reminds me a bit of some of my others like John Tiller's Campaign Series.
2. Bigger picture fights than just squads. The Epic scale was great for this game, and too this day I don't know too many games that fight at this scale. You had companies you used made up of squads. That was a wonderful size to feel like you were fighting a war, not a street battle.
3. Variety. Not only were there a lot of unit choices, but you also had to find company rosters you could use. If you wanted a tank company, you needed to find one. Or maybe you wanted Tallarens. That actually made the game more fun.
4. Titans. Ok, seriously, we all love giant stompy robots.
5. Personality. Again, this game got the personality for 40K right. The full motion videos were awesome (but unlikely to ever happen again.) But then the feel of the units and the enemies were good. The way the orks tended to charge you and had fast vehicles (painted red of course!) The different commanders you developed and the different companies gave each unit some serious personality. The experience system also helped here.

Of other Warhammer 40 K games, only Dawn of War I came close to be as good as either of the above, but RTS was just not the same. (They did pretty good with personality.) DoW II was actually a major step backwards in my opinion. Other games generally miss the mark. (Though the DS game, Squad Command was pretty good, but not as fun on the small screen.)

For the new game, I hope you are either going to be able to do something like Final Liberation. That is more what I expect in a large scale game. I really hope this is not just Panzer Corp with 40K units.

Eventually I would love someone to put out a game that follows regular 40K tabletop rules. I don't paint well, nor have money for tons of minis. But I would buy a computer game that let me play 40K. Of course, I don't know if GW would want that as it might cut into mini sales.

Well, there. I said my piece. I have great hopes for this game. I hope you guys get the 40K feel right. Make sure you read some books from the Black Library before you finish the game.

Thanks,
Duncan

[JimmyC]

I actually heard fairly bad comments about the new Space Hulk pc game. Haven't got it myself though, so can't comment.

I also loves Chaos Gate - great game, albeit a bit buggy with the vehicles. Shadow of the Horned Rat was also a cool WFB pc game, although excessively hard.

I know there are a lot of comments requesting the game not be just Panzer Corps with 40k units, but personally i really loved Panzer Corps and think the engine would fit very well with Armageddon...

[vadersson]

I actually heard fairly bad comments about the new Space Hulk pc game. Haven't got it myself though, so can't comment.

Really? That is sad. The game has been evolving I understand and I purchased it around Christmas. The AI could use some tuning as the genestealers are a bit too agressive, but the game is a very solid representation of the board game. I highly recommend it IF you like the Space Hulk board game.

I think Panzer Corp (and the original Panzer General) was good too. I think most of us were hoping for something more like Final Liberation or something based on the minis rules.

Thanks,
Duncan

[El_Jairo]

Do you consider doing a remake of Final Liberation or Chaos Gate?
These were my all time favorite 40K games.

Chaos Gate only lacked some kind of free form campaign (like in XCOM or Jagged Alliance), more varied opponents to be perfect.

I can only comment on Chaos Gate but just to say how much I love that game: it had a dark and scary feel to it. Running behind a corner wasn't something I was going to do unprepared. Also the mechanic of armour and how you could destroy it was grant. And those Termies, they where litteral tactical dreadnought armour. Walking as slow as hell but the autocannon could rip through marines like a knife through butter.

Ahh, those sweet memories.

I feel sad that I never got to playing Final Liberation but I reckon it isn't worth it anymore to start playing it in modern times.