Playing the Turkish Napoeonic/ACWarmy

[pyrrhus17]

I find that is a random battle the turks cannot seem to be beaten the "great Pike blocks just get shot down in droves .Manuvering to either side of the entrenchment to force the ai to move doesn't help either each shot of average troops by the turks brings 20 dead while I get 5-12 it seems a metta gaming problem which I find a boring exercise in accounting and NOT gaming .Arty is useless being so far not effective at all (again entrenchments ) on a large board you have no flank maneuver room to be effective you just end up being out shot by there cavalry .WTF do the turks have fricken machine gun or what . I can tell you right now I would never take a western army over the turks in this system you are just going to out shoot and out number your enemy every time .I find troop quality in this game questionable at best in this system and fogs . Still trying to like this title but not happening for me .

[TheGrayMouser]

If you are using an army w "great pike blocks" then you must also have "big Kuirassiers" Use them to sweep aside the Turkish cavalry... If the turks are using bows they will be very effective against unarmoured troops btw...

I am not sure why you are complaining that the AI is not easily tricked out of its , apparently, very effective position!

[nikgaukroger]

I can tell you right now I would never take a western army over the turks in this system you are just going to out shoot and out number your enemy every time .

Interesting, opposite to my experience I must say. Don't think I've yet lost using a western army against the Turks - AI or human, although much harder against a human opponent (unsurprisingly). Out of interest what size battles are you playing?

[TimW]

The Ottomans have always been a popular wargames army in this period, probably because they have been effective under just about every set of rules. Which is probably because they were historically very effective. They were not invincible however, and aren't in P&S. Just very tough to beat.

The Ottoman strength is sheer numbers plus firepower. Historically the Holy Roman Empire fought several drawn out wars with the Ottoman Empire, with the Empire managing to halt Ottoman incursions several times, most famously at Vienna in 1529 and 1685.

A few suggestions. Firstly, if the Grand Vizier has dug in behind fortifications and invites you to attack them, politely decline his invitation. The AI is quite willing to come out of the trenches if you give it an excuse to. Secondly, as you've noticed, fighting the Turks is quite unlike fighting a western opponent. The Turks have numbers, manouverability and enormous firepower.

What they do not have is close-fighting troops who can stand up to pikes and kurrasiers. Almost all their army is lightly equipped by 17th century European standards and will not enjoy a head-on hand-to-hand fight with a tercio or kurrassiers at all. In the open even Janiseries will not stand.Try concentrating your force, advancing in a compact formation and try and overwhelming one Turkish flank. Do not be tempted to stand around exchanging shot unless you want to re-enact the Little Big Horn with the Empire playing Custer, just advance despite casualties and pitch into the Turks. Try and ignore the Turkish light foot skirmishers, they're a nuisance and might disorder a Tercio but you can't win a fire-fight and even a disordered tercio can give much of the formed Ottoman foot a real problem in melee - and once you're in melee those skirmishers and the massed Ottoman artillery can't do anything to interfere. Resist the temptation to frontally charge sipahis with harquebusiers though, they're really not up to the job.

For what it's worth I just tried another skirmish game as the Empire against the Turks. I've played open battles against the AI's Turks but not attack/defence ones until now. I chose attacking using an Imperial army with late tercios. The Ottomans defending and dug in. Largest army and largest map sizes. I won 11% to 49% on the middle difficulty level having destroyed the Ottoman right and most of their centre completely and believe me I'm no military genius. I played a few more turns and got to 69% against the Turk's 13%. I was a bit lucky in that the Turks didn't rally from rout as often as they sometimes do and for reasons I can't imagine the AI decided to try ill-armed foot as assault troops against a couple of formed tercios, the resulting slaughter and Turkish rout causing nearby janisseries to have a serious collapse in enthusiasm just as the pursuing tercios hit them in the flank.

For troop selection I copied the imperial armies that fought the Turks - pretty much maximise hussars and kuirrasiers, don't bother with extra artillery, have a few skirmishing shot to distract the AI with, a few harquebusiers and that's it. Then swung my entire army down whichever flank offered me the quickest route to outflank the fortifications in the centre to get the AI to abandon them then charged into whatever was in front of me.

Could have gone the other way as well I think, I was a bit lucky in that my pursuing units didn't present their rears to the enemy too often. I generally seem to beat the AI Turks around half the time, but when I lose I'm pretty sure it's because I did something wrong. Even if that thing was giving battle on a field where a sensible general would not

[pyrrhus17]

I am playing large battles later Spanish vs Ottomans ,I can maneuver to a flank but frankly The amount of cavalry I have is just overwhelmed after being shot to bits by the turks ( I flanks with infantry and cav ) chase the lights away then the above average bow cav just shoot my men down in droves quickly becoming disordered if I don't charge they are just shot to bits if I do they are flanked and killed ,The infantry are often out shot by the bow armed horse and I had one instance of a steady pike being shot to disordered and charged frontaly there after by siprots (sorry spelling) and breaking .Most of the time the foot shoot bak just to have the cav overwhelmed by the enemy and they themselves killed . The infantry is another horror story of yeah they leave the trench and then proceed to murder the shit out of my pikemen superior , average , Large later terico doesn't mater each stand does 20 casualties three shots and if your average you are done if average takes four or five rounds of this if your superior ,charge in and it doesn't really matter ( the crap raw troops die yes but there are two or three stands to take there place ) been playing wargames (table top) for over 20yrs can seem to beat them O. all this on three stars btw . so I must suck but their rate of fire seems Op I shoot and do 12 they shoot and do 20 stand for stand , Hand to hand is better but I don't have smoke to cover my advance LOL. AS A SIDE LOAD A VIDEO I would love to see people beet this army In a "skirmish random set up " and also what they choose for troops

[rbodleyscott]

their rate of fire seems Op I shoot and do 12 they shoot and do 20 stand for stand

Janissary units are 100% musketeers, pike and shot are at most 66% musketeers, later tercios are 60% musketeers. 60% of 20 is 12. (Note that the extra rear ranks of a tercio can't shoot, they just replace losses and provide flank protection.).

[mceochaidh]

I am a new player to Pike and Shot and I see references to games involving Turks and Poles. I presume these are skirmish games, but when I go to the skirmish section, I do not see any selection for either of these armies. I also do not see a way to match out of period armies against each other. For example, I do not see a way to play a 30 Years War army against an Italian War army. I must be missing something. My version was purchased through Steam, if this makes any difference. Is there any list of all the armies available in the game? I have the FOG reference books for this period, so would also be interested in creating armies. Is this possible and can they then be used to play each other or must we wait for the additional modules to be created for all of the army lists in the books?

I find the game historically accurate and addictive!

Thanks for any responses.

[TheGrayMouser]

I am a new player to Pike and Shot and I see references to games involving Turks and Poles. I presume these are skirmish games, but when I go to the skirmish section, I do not see any selection for either of these armies. I also do not see a way to match out of period armies against each other. For example, I do not see a way to play a 30 Years War army against an Italian War army. I must be missing something. My version was purchased through Steam, if this makes any difference. Is there any list of all the armies available in the game? I have the FOG reference books for this period, so would also be interested in creating armies. Is this possible and can they then be used to play each other or must we wait for the additional modules to be created for all of the army lists in the books?

I find the game historically accurate and addictive!

Thanks for any responses.

Hi, check off the historical filter to play turks vs poles.
Unfortunately you cannot play skirmishes between armies from different modules. ( at least without modding it)

[rbodleyscott]

Hi, check off the historical filter to play turks vs poles.

You don't need to turn off the historical filter to play Ottomans vs Poles.

@mceochaidh - Poles and Ottomans are in the Thirty Years War skirmish section - although they did not actually take part in the Thirty Years War, they could have done and nearly did so.

There is this mod which allows TYW and ECW armies to fight each other in skirmishes:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/312390/di ... 464794169/

(However, we recommend that you don't mod your main game installation, but put the modded campaign in /My Documents/My Games/PikeandShot/Campaigns)

You will then need to turn Filter Army List off if you want to fight with ECW armies versus earlier TYW armies.

[mceochaidh]

Thanks for replies, will try tonight. Great game. Lots of possibilities for expansion into other periods, especially Ancient and Medieval and 18th century.

[pyrrhus17]

Well did what you suggested maneuvered to the flank charged with the Cuirassier (sorry sp) bought later Tericos charged when I could and guess what still lost ,. I had an average janissary unit cut through a average pike block and rout them I find it weird that my infantry refuse to charge Cavalry and only stand to shoot no matter what the moral state of said cav My advance with the Cuirassiers , they were shot to disrupted then charged and broken this was two turns of combat one lasted three turns . so yeah for the ai AND NO FOR ME. I DONT FIND WHAT THE ai DOES ALL THET SURPRISING OR GREAT .

[Miletus]

I find it weird that my infantry refuse to charge Cavalry and only stand to shoot no matter what the moral state of said cav

Hi Pyrrhus,

I'm sure Richard will provide a thorough reply, but in the meantime here's my tuppence worth...

There have been quite long discussions elsewhere on the forum about the question of infantry charging cavalry. Pike, Heavy Weapon and Mixed units with the 'keil' capability can charge cavalry, but other infantry can't. A Mixed unit's 'keil' capability can change during the course of the game due to a shift in the percentage of the unit that's made up of Shot. Check page 38 of the manual for the details. As has been said elsewhere, this is based solidly on the way troops actually behaved on the battlefield. It may look 'weird' in a computer game, but on a Renaissance or 17th century battlefield it would have looked a whole lot weirder seeing Shot charge home against formed cavalry units, whatever their morale/cohesion. Off-hand I can't think of an instance of that happening, though no doubt there are exceptions that prove the rule, as always with warfare (an art, not a science!). In this respect, IMHO, Pike & Shot closely reflects the tactics and capabilities of the era.

On the more general point about AI behaviour, I'm not quite sure what your point is. The AI provides a tough challenge at the higher levels - or even the middle ones, for me! - and it seems to work in a way that is broadly in line with warfare in the era that it's modelling. That ticks all the boxes as far as I'm concerned, and I don't really know what else you would want it to do!!!

Re the Turks against European armies, I've tried different Skirmish match-ups with different results, winning some and losing some while playing for and against the Ottomans. Most armies in Skirmish mode give you a reasonable chance against the AI if you stick to broadly historical tactics. OTOH, if you're trying to charge Horse with Janissary musketeers, that could be the root of your problem...!

Anyway hope you sort it out cos it's a great game and well worth the effort of overcoming any initial hiccups!

Cheers,
Miletus.

[pyrrhus17]

Sorry My keyboard died mid way through my response . I only meant that I don't feel I really am surprised by the AI ( which given the nature of the set piece battle is not surprising . What I am surprised by is How good the Turkish troops are head to head I have a small advantage in hand to hand but given their great shooting it more than makes up for it . I maneuver on a flank charge with my Cuirassier and they then are out flanked when they purse and overwhelmed (give the weird nature of routing and pursuits) the easily find themselves alone . perhaps because I don't choose the verywide . Map only the wide map . I don't know . I find myself out flanking the Turks only to have them turn right or left and proceed to shoot me down in droves then charge . My holding force in front has the same thing happen they leave the fortifications move up shoot me into disordered then just overwhelm me . when I choose average tericos they just seem to go to disordered faster . I would love a vid if someone has one ,I will keep trying ,Love the challenge but man I must be missing something here in maneuver and army choice . wouldn't cuirassiers be good against average janissarys ? mounted vs swordsmen ?

[rbodleyscott]

If you can persuade the Janissaries to come out of their fortification you should definitely be trying to ride them down with kurassiers (on +200 POA at impact) rather than fighting them with your infantry.

You should probably maximise your kurassiers and minimise your infantry.

[mceochaidh]

I was able to find the Polish Army list under Italian Wars armies as pro Imperial with the historical filter off but could not find the Turks. Are the Turks under 30 Years War or Italian Wars? Are they pro-Imperial or anti-Imperial?

[rbodleyscott]

I was able to find the Polish Army list under Italian Wars armies as pro Imperial with the historical filter off but could not find the Turks. Are the Turks under 30 Years War or Italian Wars? Are they pro-Imperial or anti-Imperial?

Both are under 30 Years War. No need to turn the historical filter off. Polish are Pro-Imperial. Ottomans are Anti-Imperial.

[TimW]

What I am surprised by is How good the Turkish troops are head to head I have a small advantage in hand to hand but given their great shooting it more than makes up for it

The Turks were good, a superpower of the time, but they were and are not unbeatable. Maybe you are not using an army that can handle them very well? I think you said you are using the Spanish? Try an Imperial army of around 1632 or a bit earlier with maximum kurrassiers and hussars. The hussars can defeat most of the Turkish light horse head-on and be a nuisance to Timariots if they catch them in flank or rear. Hussars are also useful because if you get them behind the Turks the AI will probably divert sipahis to chase them.

When I suggested throwing your entire army at one Turkish flank I meant exactly that. No clever plan, no "holding forces", just try to destroy part of the Turkish army with all of yours. Widest possible battlefield, deploy onto the flank you intend to attack down and steamroller ahead. With a bit of luck you can defeat the Turks while the AI is still trying to react and sort itself out. If it doesn't work, try again. I suspect a large part of P&S is getting a "feel" for the system and the AI and what is and isn't possible or a good idea.

Tercios seem far more effective for me against Turks than pike and shot battalions. Tercios can take more casualties and can pike down pretty much anything Turkish in front of them while being resistant against flank charges. The Holy Roman Empire maintained expensive 3/4 armoured kuirrassiers on its eastern frontiers long after they went out of fashion elsewhere, and there's a reason for that.

Once you get a unit into melee then Turkish firepower can no longer hurt it. Yes, you will lose some units because they pursue, get cut off and surrounded as the AI chases them (the AI is very good at this) but hopefully they'll take far more than one Turkish unit with them.

Concentrate your force, get local superiority, hit the Turks hard and hope the dice (or random number generator) gives you a few breaks.

As for foot not attacking mounted.

Did Napoleonic infantry break out of square formation to charge enemy cavalry?

1630s/40s shot were armed with a slow-firing matchlock musket and either the cheapest sword their employer could buy or the best they could afford to buy themselves (or were willing to pay for). No bayonets, they hadn't been invented yet. When threatened by horse shot might try and stop the horse with firepower (success was unlikely, contemporaries remarked on the Swedes managing it at Lutzen). Otherwise they'd head for the shelter of their attached pikes because a man on foot with a musket he can only use as a club is an easy target for an armoured horseman with a few pistols or a lance.

Pikemen, especially in the later 10, 8 or 6 deep formations, held off horse by closing the files up, the fromt ranks holding their pike in their outstretched left hand with the pike butt stuck in the ground by their right foot and crouched so it angled gently upwards with the point around the height of a horse's head or chest. Then they stood still, ready to draw their swords if the horse broke through the wall of pikes. They did not charge horsemen because if they broke formation or too many pikes were broken or dropped the horse would break into them. The need to keep formation and the problems of handling a 16-18 feet long pike meant a charge by a stand of pikes was probably a quite slow shuffle rather than a run.

The really big pike formations with few shot of the 16th century may have tried to attack horse but it was rare - mounted men can easily avoid being contacted by pikemen in formation. Early/mid 16th century pike keils had few supporting shot compared to later and little answer to troops like pistol-armed reiters other than to try and drive them off so once in a while they may have tried, or may have sent out the halberdiers in the middle of the pikes to try.

Later pike would have relied on their accompanying shot, sheltering under the pikes, to persuade attacking pistoliers or threatening lancers to go away.
So, put simply, foot rarely tried to attack horse, even from behind. Because, just like in Napoleon's day, if they did they were asking for trouble.

[rumguff]

You should probably maximise your kurassiers and minimise your infantry.

Not really a historical suggestion.

I maintain that both the turks and poles are over powered for this game engine.

[pyrrhus17]

I find that the maneuverability of so troops is not easy to get used to who they can and cant charge seems complicated . funny I love reading about this period but I just don't enjoy this game so far , Guess I just don't get it .Doesn't seem like anybody has open invites to battle unlike some of the other games by slitherine . really would like to see others play a basic attack open skirmish against turks .I would like to see the masters play this game cause right now its just not clicking for me .

[nikgaukroger]

Doesn't seem like anybody has open invites to battle unlike some of the other games by slitherine . really would like to see others play a basic attack open skirmish against turks

Challenges seem to get taken up very quickly - don't think I've had one up unclaimed for longer than about 30 mins. Best option may be to arrange one by PM so it can be passworded so not taken up by anyone