Afrika Korps "Brevity" - why are Hurricanes able to spot me?

[ptje63]

In the second turn on "Brevity" (second battle) two Hurricanes attack my Pz.IVE on (6,6) and Pz.IIIH on (16,9).
No other allied unit has spotted me however on that hex position... In the follow up turn I check with my scout units and have found none (hidden) anywhere that could have given away my position...
So how did the AI find out where I was - exactly - hexes which "happened" to be undefended by my three Me.10gG's, which were positioned on other hexes.
Have they attacked randomly and "happened" to land on hexes occupied by my axis forces?
Or am I being too suspecious, thinking the AI is not bothered/limited by a FOG, the way I am?

[Warbringa]

I have found that the AI is able to find units it shouldn't be able to see as well in my various campaigns. Do keep in mind that AT guns for example have a higher sighting range than tanks and infantry if I remember correctly. I have had the AI on multiple occasions fly in and attack units on the brink of death that I pulled back many spaces from the battle. I always now put a fighter to cover any unit that could be destroyed by enemy airstrike after running across the problem you noted above ptje63.

[Tarrak]

The AI follows the fog of wars rules. The problem in Brevity was mentioned already before but i can't find the relevant thread at the moment. If i recall correctly the fighters spawn and can act in the same turn so what happens is one of the fighters spawns and move giving the AI sight of your units and the others then just swoop on the now spotted units and attack them.

[ptje63]

I have sensed before in other games, that the AI was given benefit when playing on a higher level, for example by giving AI more visibility despite FOG.
On this occasion, the first Hurricane moved from straight south due north. Has spotting of 1 or 2 and no way of telling/spotting what lies far 6 hexes away on the second hex, that the second Hurricane attacked.
For now, I cannot let go of some sort of suspicioun

[ptje63]

Do hope you will excuse a possible 2nd mentioning/thread about this...

[Tarrak]

I never noticed the AI spotting anything it should not spot in all my games. So generally the AI do obey FoW rules, no matter on which difficulty. I don't rule out the possibility that under certain, rare circumstances, something strange happens and the AI attacks units it should not see but it's surely not a general behavior. If you happen to have a replay or a save just before the situation occurs please upload it to the boards (you need to zip the file first) and i have a look at it.

[captainjack]

I've had a few strange cases where the AI appears to retain full spotting in sandstorms. This includes cases where the usual suspects (standing next to a minefield, and a unit moves away early in the turn so the AI knows you are there) can be ruled out.

That doesn't mean it IS spotting me, but it looks as if it is.

[Goatman]

I've noticed this playing AK. Not only fighters but also land units, occasionally one zips out of nowhere and attack targets it shouldn't be seeing, and sometimes they also seem to ignore ZoC(?)
I know how to place traps, do it often, and while mostly they work, sometimes i helplessly watch as a fighter zips through and above my units to desperately suicide hit that weaker unit on the back, that i'm ABSOLUTELY certain is not being spotted. Um, because i already cleared the way. I really don't want to disable FoW, so i just reload over and over and scout around to make sure there's nothing. If there's nothing and it's some sort of "anomaly", i just cheat the unit to it's previous status. Too bad for the AI. It's annoying, tho.
Dunno, but it seems it might be related to those specific units in some way. Maybe thy spawn with messed up stats or something? Still, they do provide squad view, so it can mean a lot of unnecessary trouble...

[ptje63]

Have tried the same setup of forces for a dozen times.
Please check screen shot 1. One Hurricane attacks on same hex every time, the second one does not appear however.
Both hexes not defended by my Me.109s.

Then changed to defended positions by Me.109s. Check screen shot 2.
Then AI suddenly does NOT attack my Pz.IVE at hex 6,6, but instead attacks an undefended artillery at 14,7.
(Not defended I mean while attacking - it probably does not know that in my turn I can use my Flak88, which was mounted at the time of the attack).

Please note: the Cruiser Mk.1 at 5,7 was ambushed by the SdKfz 232 AFTER the Hurricane attacked the artillery, as did the movement of the Lorry at 7,7 - so NEITHER could have given my position away.
I scouted the hexes south of the Cruiser to see if any other Allied units was there, was there were none.

Initially I thought the Hurricane attacks were planned/programmed for hex 6,6, defended or not. But now I do suspect some AI cheating here...

ATTACHED FILES HAVE BEEN MIXED UP WHILE UPLOADING: for first situation see 2nd shot, 2nd situation see first shot - sorry...

[Goatman]

HAX!

[ThvN]

I think I know what is happening, but I don't understand if the screenshots are showing consecutive turns or have you replayed turn 2? The AI doesn't cheat, but the scenario writer does. In the editor, two 7-strength Hurricanes are set to spawn at (6,4) and (16,7) on turn 2. If any of these hexes are occupied, the plane will spawn later when the hex is clear (checked every turn).

So they spawn out of thin air at the start of the AI turn, and you cannot see them coming because the AI has the first turn (it goes first every turn, and these polanes will spawn as soon as you press End Turn). If the hexes are clear and the weather allows it, they will try to find a nice juicy target within their spotting range (2 hexes) and attack it.

So, what happens in your first instance (bottom screenshot):

The Hurricane at (6,4) spawns next to a Bf109 (northwestern hex). The other Hurricane cannot spawn because the other Bf109 is already occupying that hex. It will try next turn. So, the first Hurricane can spot everything within two hexes:

So the AI sees the Bf109 next to it, the 8-rad, PaK gun and two infantry, an artillery that is underneath the Bf109, and the SE Panzer III and Panzer IVE. Out of these, the Panzer IVE is probably the 'best' target: unprotected, only 10 AD and quite dangerous, so it attacks. In your first post, you mention the other Hurricane attacking a Panzer IIIH at (16,9); when spawning at (16,7) it saw your Panzer and went for it.



What happens in the second instance?

I'm not 100% sure, because two Hurricanes should have spawned; I can see only one? Are the pictured Hurricanes the same unit? Anyway, the one at (6,4) would only see defended targets and not attack. In my experience, it might have tried to fly to the closest airfield; their fuel is a bit on the low side, and they can't wait long for targets to appear. The other Hurricane can spawn (16,7), and sees only three undefended targets in spotting range: an artillery, your Flak in transport and an infantry unit. I assume your artillery was in a transport as well?

As I mentioned somewhere else, another reason people suspect the AI is cheating sometimes: spotting is reduced in bad weather, and this weather changes on the start of the turn of the side that goes first. So simply because the AI sometimes has the first turn when the weather clears they suddenly can see normally, but this effect is only updated for the player when his turn starts. So you think there is a sandstorm/snow whatever and you can't see, but press End turn and suddenly unseen AI units come out of nowhere to attack you.

[ptje63]

Hi,
I should have explained this better: I have replayed turn 2 to check the difference in the AI behavior in response to changes I made in positioning my aerial cover. I did my best to position all the units in the same hexes, but made a mistake with the two artillery pieces left to the 88mm gun, which should be 1 hex down.
In both replayed turns only 1 Hurricane appeared.

What I dont understand from your description of what happens in the first instance, is the fact that "...the AI sees..." - "...so it attacks...". It appears as if the Hurricane can spot all these units while flying over and then decide which one is best to attack. But a Hurricane does not have the scouting abilities of, say, a SdKfz 232 - doesnt the Hurricane just simply lands on the hex and THEN sees what lies around him (or her ). It cant scout while flying and then pick out which one is best or do I misunderstand?

In the second instance, the left Hurricane did not appear. Not because the Me109 took its hex, because it is positiond left of it. Since it is from 2 different replays, it is not the same unit. All units surrounding the Hurricane in a transport thats correct.

Anyway - nice to ponder about what is happening here - thanks for the comprehensive response .

[ThvN]

What I dont understand from your description of what happens in the first instance, is the fact that "...the AI sees..." - "...so it attacks...". It appears as if the Hurricane can spot all these units while flying over and then decide which one is best to attack. But a Hurricane does not have the scouting abilities of, say, a SdKfz 232 - doesnt the Hurricane just simply lands on the hex and THEN sees what lies around him (or her ). It cant scout while flying and then pick out which one is best or do I misunderstand?

Normally it would work like that, yes, but the Hurricanes are not flying in/over anything, they simply appear in the hex at the start of the Allied turn and move from those positions. So they appear (spawn) near your units and can still make a full move/attack. They scenario writer made it this way, it also happens in some later scenarios that planes will appear where you thought you were safe (when playing Palestine something similar happens on turn 9).

I made two screenshots to better explain. I started Brevity as a standalone scenario, and play both sides. I played the first Allied turn, then the first Axis turn. I took a screenshot at the end of the 1st Axis turn, and marked the hexes where the Hurricanes spawn with a red 1 and 2.

The next screenshot (Allied turn 2) is taken immediately after pressing 'End Turn' in the 1st Axis turn. I did not move anything, and there they suddenly are: two Hurricanes (one is displayed smaller on top of the Panzer on the road). And you can see that they immediately spot everything in a 2-hex radius. You can see the spotting radius around the Hurricanes, this is what the AI 'sees' as well.

Now, these two Hurricanes still have a full move/attack available. They cannot remain in the area for long because it is a long way to the nearest airport, and in my experience if they don't see any good target they will fly South. This happens so fast you cannot see them move sometimes, so it will look like they didn't spawn.

[ptje63]

I think this solves it for me - no AI cheating - (again) thanks for the comprehensive explanation...
(no "applause" smiley...)