Game Annoyances

[s_nigel_ht]

I've played the game a lot but find the game aggravating at times. Multiple times I have "prematurely" won the game...as in I've played well enough to be in position to deliver a smashing blow only for the game to tell me "You Won!". No, I'm going to win NEXT turn...you've just deprived me of my fun. This is especially annoying playing as the allies since you have to sit and take it for a while before you can dish it out.

I've also won the game when clearly the next turn I'm about to get smashed. As the Germans I had advanced far enough to gain enough VPs to "win" but the arrival of the armor and infantry on the southern flank pretty much meant that the entire spearhead were about to be out of supply next turn. Nothing else I had left was going to be able the fight through to them and my "victory" was about to fall apart. I had just Falaised myself but hey I "won".

And the huge annoyance that made me post was my last game as the allies. I had finally put the entire german army out of supply (by capturing every eastern space)...only to be told at the start of the next day, nope you lost...the Germans "crushed" you. Really? Not if you can read a map.

Of course, the only reason that the Germans were able to get enough VPs to win is because I let the Germans keep Verviers and Bastonge with completely isolated units so the game wouldn't prematurely end.

So here are my recommendations:

1) When VP conditions are met ask the players if they wish to keep playing.
2) Allow players to choose to score VPs only at the end of the scenario.
3) Allow players to set whether or not out of supply/isolated units generate VPs.
4) Allow players to set whether or not reinforcements arrive anyway even if the arrival "hex" has been taken. If a defending enemy unit is present then combat and ownership is determined normally. Maybe give the defender some combat advantages.
5) For single player replayability provide a difficulty setting. This could be as simple as providing more replacement pips to one or both sides to increasing the strength of some units (like the 150th Panzer) or skewing the combat results table.
6) I'd really like to be able to skip combat table animations.

I know this post is negative but it's a fun game that drive me completely batty with these easily fixed game limitations...like not being able to keep playing.

[s_pixelgeek]

The main annoyance you mention is a known bug that has been addressed and I suspect will show up in the first update

[s_nigel_ht]

The main annoyance you mention is a known bug that has been addressed and I suspect will show up in the first update

Not listed in the FAQ that you can't play through after victory has been achieved (or lost). Are you talking about reaching the river with unsupplied units? That's just a bug I can avoid until the update. If it is addressed as out of supply units don't generate VPs the game will end even more prematurely.

One more recommendation:

I'd like to have save games to try what ifs.

[s_pixelgeek]

Are you talking about reaching the river with unsupplied units? That's just a bug I can avoid until the update.

The Germans winning with units not in supply. That shouldn't happen as it did in your case

[daviddunham]

I think he means that the fact that it’s a game, and has victory points, and he won or lost by playing the game, is at odds with his assessment of the military situation.

I guess you could think of VP as satisfying the Axis High Command. If you can do that, you won’t be shot. (Or vice versa.)

[s_nigel_ht]

I think he means that the fact that it’s a game, and has victory points, and he won or lost by playing the game, is at odds with his assessment of the military situation.

I guess you could think of VP as satisfying the Axis High Command. If you can do that, you won’t be shot. (Or vice versa.)

Well, any game depends on some level of suspension of disbelief however in this case the request is simple...I'd like the option to keep playing even after the game is "over" until the last day of the scenario.

VPs are VPs and they are what they are. The annoyance is setting up for a decisive victory and not actually have the fun of executing it. There's also the satisfaction from playing on from a bad situation and managing to salvage more than you expected. I don't play to see the ending graphics, rack up VPs or to gain achievements. I play because the GAMEPLAY is fun.

I guess part of it is when playing a lot of WWII games (like WiF) our house rule has been that the Allies can resign but the Axis can't. Otherwise it's a game of the Axis having all the fun of bashing on the Allies until discovering that they probably can't win so they concede.

If you stop the game just as it's about to be fun that's not cool.

[s_MesaDon]

I totally agree with nigel_ht and also would like to play through the 13th day. Also not so concerned with the points but the fun of the game.

[Certain Death]

I have to disagree about the VP.

VPs are there because there is so much going on beyond The Battle of Bulge, sure you might think the that the military situation is not reflected by the VPs, but VPs reflect the abstract - what intelligence could be gleaned from the capture of Liege or the other key VP locations? Who knows what would have actually happened had the Germans actually have broken through? Allied morale, on the front and at home might have collapsed and vice versa for the Germans. Other nearby battles may have gone differently as troops and resources were diverted. This is what the VPs represent and therefore are more important than simple military annihilation.

Remind yourself that the game is driven by VP and auto win scenarios. Yes, an option to carry on playing after a victory might suit some, but it misses the wider point IMHO.

[s_nigel_ht]

I have to disagree about the VP.

VPs are there because there is so much going on beyond The Battle of Bulge, sure you might think the that the military situation is not reflected by the VPs, but VPs reflect the abstract - what intelligence could be gleaned from the capture of Liege or the other key VP locations? Who knows what would have actually happened had the Germans actually have broken through? Allied morale, on the front and at home might have collapsed and vice versa for the Germans. Other nearby battles may have gone differently as troops and resources were diverted. This is what the VPs represent and therefore are more important than simple military annihilation.

Remind yourself that the game is driven by VP and auto win scenarios. Yes, an option to carry on playing after a victory might suit some, but it misses the wider point IMHO.

Remind yourself that VPs are simply a game mechanic used by game designers and games are driven by fun. There are advantages and disadvantages to the VP mechanism. On the plus side it's a objective criteria for victory. On the minus side you can end up with some really gamey behavior where some players will exploit game mechanics to achieve a victory. Since I do mostly solo play that's not much of a concern for me unless it results in a fight between the devs and players over "game balance" and "purity of design" and solo play is negatively impacted because of multiplayer issues.

The "wider point" is the players having fun. Being allowed to play on doesn't impact your enjoyment since you can just hit no and stop. Not being allowed to play on has negatively impacted my enjoyment of the game since the outcome of the battle is meaningless to me given it's not part of a larger campaign so I enjoy the tactical victories.

Purity < Fun.

[Yojimbo252]

I totally agree with nigel_ht and also would like to play through the 13th day.

I think the point Nigel was making is being giving the option to play through to the 13th day even if a victory condition has been met earlier.

And I think it's a valid request.

Being able to play beyond the 28th Dec might involve a fair degree of rework because the calendar and everything it controls like reinforcements, replacements, air power, axis fuel shortages, etc only goes to the 28th.

[s_MesaDon]

I felt that nigel's problem was that frequently you never make it close to the 28th and he would like the opportunity to run the whole game length. I agree has while I am a poor player I have stumbled to victory (and the early ending of the game) the few times I have played the full scenario. I have yet to see any days past the 22nd. Please add continue button and more scenarios.

[NZLPilot]

Totally agree with a continue button and Is something I also suggested in another thread.

[s_nkarp]

Allowing players to continue should indeed be a feature. The victory bands are really there to save spending a lot of time on a hopeless situation. But if the players want to continue they should really be able.

Just added it to the wish list -- thanks for the ideas!

[wargamer11]

I've also won the game when clearly the next turn I'm about to get smashed. As the Germans I had advanced far enough to gain enough VPs to "win" but the arrival of the armor and infantry on the southern flank pretty much meant that the entire spearhead were about to be out of supply next turn. Nothing else I had left was going to be able the fight through to them and my "victory" was about to fall apart. I had just Falaised myself but hey I "won".

In the scenario described above, perhaps the reason the Allies were in such great position to "smash" the Germans the next turn, was because they didn't bother to do enough to prevent the German from achieving the early victory conditions, instead spending time and resources positioning for their eventual counterattack.

Early game victory conditions in wargames aren't just there to provide incentives for the "attacker" to win, they are also there to create incentives for the "defender" to perform in a certain manner as well. if they choose to ignore those incentives, they do so at their peril.

[Katleman]

6) I'd really like to be able to skip combat table animations.

While I agree, it would be nice to skip the animations, I find it's quick enough to just press the "Close" button once the shells start flying.

You don't need to wait til the last bullet is fired.

[thedudeabidez]

I like the Victory Points, because they lead to turn-by-turn tension, but I must agree that an option to play through the final turn, with victory decided based on end-game totals, would be nice. I've played about ten games against opponents, and maybe another dozen against the AI, and I have yet to see a game go past Dec. 23rd. The Allies need to play a fairly robust defense to win early on points, but for the Axis, the point system tends to reward conservative play IMO --it's possible to completely disregard the Meuse objectives and win on points.

[s_nigel_ht]

6) I'd really like to be able to skip combat table animations.

While I agree, it would be nice to skip the animations, I find it's quick enough to just press the "Close" button once the shells start flying.

You don't need to wait til the last bullet is fired.

I do this already but it's annoying to have to do.

[s_nigel_ht]

In the scenario described above, perhaps the reason the Allies were in such great position to "smash" the Germans the next turn, was because they didn't bother to do enough to prevent the German from achieving the early victory conditions, instead spending time and resources positioning for their eventual counterattack.

Early game victory conditions in wargames aren't just there to provide incentives for the "attacker" to win, they are also there to create incentives for the "defender" to perform in a certain manner as well. if they choose to ignore those incentives, they do so at their peril.

Actually it was the German player not paying attention to the reinforcement schedule and screwing up his flank protection.

With aggressive German play and some good dice rolls there's not a whole lot the Allied player (either the AI or human) can do but take the beating and hope the German player does something stupid. Which I did. Game mechanics that reward piss-poor play is generally a bad thing. Even worse, they can often be manipulated to generate unrealistic wins by players more interested in winning via rules exploitation than in beating the opponent while also having fun.

I'm also not certain that using the victory condition game mechanic to force players to "perform in a certain manner" is optimal design. Spending "time and resources positioning for their eventual counterattack" is one of those alternative strategies that should ideally be available to the allied player...at least within the context of the current scenario design (vs the Patton scenario of attacking the base of the bulge with Hodges).

[Pat]

Just for completion's sake ... the continue game option is now in game, as requested. Update to 1.1.

[Yojimbo252]

Again, thank you.