Play balance

[s_Mylo]

Bla, I like the increased airpower idea. Like you, I find it to be ...basically not there. I know, Axis unit movement gets reduced and all that but,...where are my planes ? I like the random attacks doing the odd PIP damage to Axis units....sound effects too please.

Mylo

[Yojimbo252]

I was wondering if bumping up the effects of Allied airpower after the weather has cleared might be a useful option.
At the moment, it seems muted to me vs. what I understand the historical impact was like. Maybe a bump up to the hitroll bonus and/or a few random air attacks on individual Axis units not in deep forest each day for a chance of a -1 strength unit hit?

Obviously this is based purely on my own experiences but I'm not sure the Allies need a boost overall. I've won games as Allies where Axis player's have gone for the Meuse objectives but they've perhaps overstretched or I've got some favourable combat results and I've managed to cut supply on units and so on.

The games where I struggle as Allies is where the Axis play the very conservative avoid the Meuse game that we've been discussing where there is no real opportunity to cut supply or bring the British to bear.

I think increasing the effects of Allied airpower will hurt the Axis chances of winning via the Meuse objectives and will most likely encourage Axis to play an even more conservative game because they want to limit the amount of engagement time further.

Subject to tournament findings etc, I'd like to see a change that will incentivise Axis players to play more aggressively by making the defensive strategy relatively less rewarding.

[s_Mylo]

Yoj,

Excellent point, and one that I agree with. The Axis need an incentive to Go for the Meuse, not another reason not to, but I think this incentive should only apply during the initial bad weather phase of the game.

I played a game as the Allies the other day and lost in three days due to a Meuse crossing by my opponent, an excellent one at that. ....one more PIP of damage to his unit during a battle in which I was trying to cut off his supply would have made the difference though...games can be THAT close. So is BOtB balanced ?...I would say so. I believe the common consensus is that the Axis need less incentive to be on the defensive, and more incentive to be on the attack. ...it shouldn't be too difficult to tweak the VPs to allow for this. Having said all that, the Germans need some sort of VP incentive to put up a good defense in the latter stages of the game, post 'Weather Clearing'. As pointed out, the Germans need a way to 'win' throughout the entire battle. ...and I'm not sure that pushing hard to cross the Meuse in the latter stages of the battle is a way to accomplish this victory. It presents that ...' Well, there's no tommorrow, I might as well go suicidal with my attacks.' type of game play. It's not a lot of fun to have to play that strategy, or play against that strategy.

There really is two distinct phases in the Battle, Bad weather - Good weather. I don't consider it to be 'gamey' for a German player to realize once the weather clears that any further attempt to cross the Meuse is futile, and to decide that to put up a defense is the better option, maybe do some damage to Allied units that might open up another opportunity. Point is, Good-Weather tactics for the Germans are likely to be different then Bad-Weather ones. I agree in that the Axis should be penalized for putting up a defensive posture during bad weather, but not so much, if at all, during good weather. It's almost as if German/Allied roles should be reversed once good weather sets in, in that the Allies should have the incentive to be aggresive, the Germans more defensive, which would make for interesting play as well, with each player having a crack at each type of tactical planning with a chance of winning right through to the end.

In short, if the VPs are adjusted to provide German incentive to cross the Meuse only, once this is not realistically attainable, playing the side of the Germans won't be much 'fun' for a lot of players. I suspect many games will be ended at this point, and that personally irritates me when that happens. End result = no fun for Germans and no fun for Allies. There has to be more to it then simply crossing the Meuse.

Mylo

[Yojimbo252]

I don't have a problem with the Axis going for the Meuse and then having to fall back and consolidate during the second half of the battle where as you rightly say the Allies have the advantage during their counter offensive. I think that's a natural ebb and flow of the engagement.

Where I have concerns is when the Axis can consolidate right from the outset and still have a reasonable chance of winning. It's that which my proposal is attempting to address.

I'm not suggesting the Axis get zero points from holding cities. That is still a vital part of their VP income. I'm just proposing that it is not sufficient in its own right (unless they can inflict quite heavy losses on the Allies early on). Given poor/average early success they will be forced to seriously consider grabbing some Meuse VPs otherwise they may not amass enough to see them through the late game.

[s_Mylo]

Agreed.

Mylo

[thedudeabidez]

"I don't have a problem with the Axis going for the Meuse and then having to fall back and consolidate during the second half of the battle ... I think that's a natural ebb and flow of the engagement. Where I have concerns is when the Axis can consolidate right from the outset and still have a reasonable chance of winning. "

Total agreement. I've seen more than a few Axis players who just take their time, capture Spa and eventually take either Bastogne or Verviers (rarely both) and then just sit back behind the Werbomont-Manhay-Sibret river line building giant stacks and waiting for the weather to change. These players never even attempt to go for the Meuse, and are quite careful not to trigger the British. In this situation, the Allied player can play a practically error-free game and still lose on points by the 27th or 28th, provided the Axis doesn't do something stupid. It's almost impossible to attack across this river line against stacked armor, so the Allied player is forced to attack in the north towards Spa or in the South, thus splitting his rather limited armored forces (without the British); only concentrating on one front results in impregnable German defenses against it.

I must say, as someone who's played about 80+ games of Bulge so far and hasn't lost yet as the Axis, any Axis player who takes this approach is a wussy who'd rather have an utterly boring game with a safe win than an interesting one that requires some actual risk-taking. There are many ways to beat the Allies, and the only reason the Axis should have to take the conservative turtle approach from early on is either a.) an exceptionally short 16th with bad dice to boot, or b.) you're a lousy player.

What the game needs is additional pressure for the Axis to make a credible thrust towards the Meuse. The auto-victory is fine, but a great deal of Axis players seem to think they will have a long-term auto-victory by holding back, and I have not seen enough Allied wins against that defense to prove them wrong. One idea would be a VP penalty to the Axis for not reaching the Meuse, not necessarily by the 19th, as that would strait-jacket play, but I would say that if you haven't reached the Meuse by the 22nd or 23rd, being docked 5 VPs or so is what you deserve. It would certainly lead to more aggressive Axis play in the first half, while not affecting the ability to change to defense after the weather clears.

[Yojimbo252]

Valid points.

One other suggestion I'd like to throw onto the table for discussion is to remove the Meuse triggering condition for the British completely so they will always be able to cross the Meuse on a fixed date (or variable if you want to randomise it slightly over a given period ala Commando attacks to create a bit of uncertainty).

That way there is no incentive for the Axis to avoid the Meuse as they will be facing the British 'early' whether they like it or not and thus create an added incentive for the Axis to go for it to ensure they at least draw in the OKW reserves to back them up. If they still choose to play defensively then it will be without the assistance of the OKW which means they will have a tougher time of it.

I think this will encourage a more aggressive and fluid game which is more enjoyable in my opinion.

[Peter_TSS]

The British can cross the Meuse on the 26th, even if the Axis hasn't reached the Meuse.

[curi]

Here is a very simple idea: if the axis never reaches the meuse in bad weather, so the british are released late, then as a penalty for not attacking well and not creating a big bulge, the axis loses 5 VP at the end of the 22nd for not getting far enough. this makes it more of a tradeoff. lose 5 VP or push forward and activate the british. currently there's not enough incentive to activate the british early and a lot of risk to doing it.

My second very simple idea is to release the british on the 24th instead of 26th. Bring them into the game sooner if the axis sits back.

And third idea, also simple: make air power a bit stronger.

I think one of these ideas could improve balance without any significant change to the game.


Here is the reasoning:

The axis only needs 25 VP by the end. That's only around 2 per day from cities on average. so vith and spa, or vith plus bastogne for just half the game. that's it. that is not hard to get. a good axis player can usually do better than that, such as getting vith and spa, then slowly surrounding bastogne (and by the way, the allies need to retreat out of it right before it's surrounded. holding it 3 extra turns but losing 2 units in it eventually won't actually help them on VPs). Alternatively if spa is defended better, then the axis should usually be able to take bastogne fast. I think a good axis player can get more like 2.5 VPs on average per turn, even if things don't go that well, and without going near the meuse.

this results in a good average because you can keep vith and bastogne for the entire game. the allies won't ever game them back.

further, the axis will kill some units near the start. the very least they should ever kill is like 6 pips of units in a game. more realistically, 8 or 9 in the early game (something like: 3 from schoenborn, 3 in the surprise attack, and one of the 2 point tanks or the elsenborn 3 point infantry), and they can probably trap a 4 point infantry behind their lines and slowly kill it, if they make the effort to do that (the one in the north and the one in the south are both in pretty serious danger of being stuck behind axis lines and then killed eventually later).

so let's suppose the axis gets 2.5 VPs per turn and kills 10 pips of stuff in the whole game. i think that's reasonably conservative, but 40 VPs!! So the allies have to actually kill stuff when they counter attack. even if the axis got under 2 VPs per day from cities, the allies would still need to kill units off in clear weather to win (and not lose any units in clear weather).

It's pretty hard to attack in this game once there are a lot of units in your way and units start healing. only the first few days when a lot of terrain is empty are really good for attacking. after that you often get bogged down. you have 3 units attacking in a square, they have 3 defending, and they aren't losing hp very fast.

And the british cross too late to ever get to attack much if the axis retreats to only defend bastogne and vith for the last 2 days. Then can just run away anywhere else that might be a problem to avoid fights, and it's hard for the allies to kill units and hard for the british to do much.




Finally I have a few other ideas. I realize some of these may be too complicated, would require testing and resources, and probably won't be added. I understand if they can't be done. But here's the ideas in case they are possible:

Idea 1: at the end of every turn, add 0.1 VP for every square the axis controls and -0.1 for every allied square. this gives you an incentive to care about more places on the map and try to control the biggest area. amount of VPs to win on different days would probably need some adjusting and the 0.1 number would need adjusting to whatever the right number is.

Idea 2: at the end of the 22nd and 28th, add VPs for axis territory and subtract for allied territory. it's like the first idea, but territory doesn't matter every day. this way, the axis tries to grab as much as they can to score high when bad weather ends, then the allies try to grab all they can to score better at the end. (you'd have make victory conditions on the 26th and 27th a bit more lenient so the game is more likely to continue to the 28th so the allies can get their territory counted)

With ideas 1 and 2, the germans would try to hold onto more land instead of only vith and bastogne at the end (or maybe in some games vith, spa, and verviers).

Idea 3: Subtract 1 or 2 VPs per day on the last 2 or 3 days to reward the allies for holding off the attack that long. OPTIONAL: only do this if the axis never reached the muese.

Idea 4: During clear weather, subtract 0.33 VP per day for each of the following places the allies hold: verviers, spa, bastogne, vith. (the 0.33 number would need to be adjusted until it works well. marche could also be put on the list, or even some places that aren't worth VP to the axis)

[Yojimbo252]

The British can cross the Meuse on the 26th, even if the Axis hasn't reached the Meuse.

It's too late, that's the problem. The game is usually over before the British fire a shot if the Meuse condition isn't triggered.

That's why I'm suggesting the 'early' arrival of the British as standard and get rid of the Meuse condition altogether.

[Yojimbo252]

My second very simple idea is to release the british on the 24th instead of 26th. Bring them into the game sooner if the axis sits back.

That's what I'm getting at except no conditions. Just make it a fixed date, could be 24th or whatever feels most balanced, or randomise it slightly by saying a percentage chance on any day between say 23rd to 25th.

I'm not sure about the idea of bringing them in earlier if the axis sits back. What defines 'sits back' exactly?

[thedudeabidez]

>It's too late, that's the problem. The game is usually over before the British fire a shot if the Meuse condition isn't triggered.

True. I went to the 28th once without the British and still lost by 2 points against the turtle. That was a hard one to take!


>That's why I'm suggesting the 'early' arrival of the British as standard and get rid of the Meuse condition altogether.

That might work. Clearly there needs to be some adjusting to keep the Axis from consistently winning with a conservative, defensive strategy, which makes for dull games and doesn't really make sense given the historical situation. Of course any tweak will need some serious playtesting so as not to throw things in the other direction. It's damn close to being balanced, even against the turtle defense. Even just having the Axis VPs necessary to win decline more slowly might be enough. There has to be something that makes the Axis player feel like he is taking a risk by not trying to win in the first half.

[thedudeabidez]

Here's a classic Axis "turtle" in progress. My opponent even got lucky and took Bastogne on the 17th, and still didn't bother to advance any further than this! You can see in the North, he moved his 3 PzGr. into Herve, and I immediately attacked before he could reinforce it, first with my armor, then backing it up with an infantry unit after a lousy combat result. It's a risky position to be taking before the 23rd, but I know that if I let him get the solid behind-river wall from Herve down through Sibret, I'll probably lose anyway. So the risk must be taken. Actually, I'm surprised my opponent moved into Herve, I thought for sure he was avoiding British activation, but his reasoning must have been he'd get the reinforcements and have a stronger position if solidly behind the river. Clear terrain shoot-outs are always a crap-shoot, so we'll see what happens...

[Yojimbo252]

I would suggest that the Axis player has actually made a mistake by moving into Herve as he has now triggered the British early arrival and he's not really gaining anything by being in Stourmont apart from exposing Spa.

If you rewind the situation such that the 3 Stourmont units are defending Spa and the Meuse hasn't been reached by the Axis I would say the Allied position would be virtually untenable. That's the strongest Axis strategy I've come across and also the least enjoyable to play as or against.

[thedudeabidez]

Turtle-3.jpg

"I would suggest that the Axis player has actually made a mistake by moving into Herve as he has now triggered the British early arrival and he's not really gaining anything by being in Stourmont apart from exposing Spa."

He was going for Verviers and moved to cut it off from reinforcement. I agree that if you're playing defensive, better to not trigger the Brits.

>If you rewind the situation such that the 3 Stourmont units are defending Spa and the Meuse hasn't been reached by the Axis I would say the Allied position would be virtually untenable. That's the strongest Axis strategy I've come across and also the least enjoyable to play as or against.

Agreed. Not much fun at all. So I respect the fact my opponent at least tried to be aggressive.

Here's a shot of how the game finished, Allied win.

[thedudeabidez]

Another play balance fix that occurred to me was: what if British entry became randomized? Something like 25% chance of entry on the 23rd, 50% on the 24th, 75% on the 25th, and 100% on the 26th. There would still be some advantage to the Axis if they chose to not release the Brits early, but how much they couldn't be sure of, and it would certainly make the ultra-conservative defensive approach less of a sure thing. I suspect that something like this might be easier than fiddling with the VPs...

Any opinions?

[thedudeabidez]

Here's an example of a more classic "turtle" defense by the Axis. To be honest, I have my doubts as to whether this is beatable, though I'm going to try. With the panzers nearly intact and all in good terrain, it's an uphill battle, especially since the Allies are actually outnumbered yet expected to attack if they are to win.

No offense to my opponent meant, he's just trying to win, but this is symptomatic of how the game rewards a lack of German aggression. See those two panzer corps in Houffalize? They were parked there on the 17th and haven't moved since. Six days of static defense while the Axis is supposed to be conducting an offensive. Not exactly a fun game when this happens. Fortunately, not everyone plays this way, but it has been on the increase lately.

[Yojimbo252]

Another play balance fix that occurred to me was: what if British entry became randomized? Something like 25% chance of entry on the 23rd, 50% on the 24th, 75% on the 25th, and 100% on the 26th. There would still be some advantage to the Axis if they chose to not release the Brits early, but how much they couldn't be sure of, and it would certainly make the ultra-conservative defensive approach less of a sure thing. I suspect that something like this might be easier than fiddling with the VPs...

Any opinions?

That was my suggestion as well from an earlier post...

That's what I'm getting at except no conditions. Just make it a fixed date, could be 24th or whatever feels most balanced, or randomise it slightly by saying a percentage chance on any day between say 23rd to 25th.

But I've suggested this in conjunction with removing the early triggering condition of the British altogether. I think incorporating a disincentive for the Axis to play aggressively is not a good thing for the game and that's the crux of the problem. When the British actually arrive isn't a major problem as that date (or date range) can be adjusted for balance. The disincentive caused by the condition cannot be. It creates an imbalance not between the axis and allies but an imbalance in the axis strategies where one is certainly dominant over the others that involve touching the Meuse.

[thedudeabidez]

Totally agree. I've been playing this game constantly since it came out, probably 100 games under my belt by now, and I have to say, it's become really boring lately because so many Axis players are just going with this unbeatable defensive approach. The game no longer feels like German offensive/Allied counter-offensive, but German defensive line construction / Allied bashing his head into it. Which is just sad because the Axis certainly have a fair chance of winning on the attack. It amazes me how many people would rather just have the win and a boring game.

Generally the Axis line runs from Spa through the woods down to Bastogne/Sibret and whatever good terrain they hold south of that. Usually either Verviers or Bastogne can be taken along with St. Vith and Spa (or possibly Marche), resulting in 4 points a turn. Without the British, the Allies actually have to conduct a rapid offensive against a numerically superior enemy in good terrain (which largely cancels out the airpower benefits.) Even beginning to counter-attack on the 21st or 22nd when possible -- the Allied player has to be very careful not to lose any units -- it's generally possible to re-take Spa/Stourmont and push through to or near Bastogne while killing a few units in the process and STILL lose on points before the British join in! Even if the Brits do arrive, the Axis lines are so far back it will be the 27th at the earliest that they can join the fray. If the game lasts that long, which isn't likely.

The ironic thing, I've found, is that the better you play as the Allies in the early game -- delaying the Axis, blocking their advances -- the more likely it is your opponent will go with this defensive strategy which means almost certain loss. I'm almost thinking it's better to risk an early Meuse crossing loss and tempt your opponent into advancing, because playing against the defensive Axis position with no Brits is just slow death.

[thedudeabidez]

"It creates an imbalance not between the axis and allies but an imbalance in the axis strategies where one is certainly dominant over the others that involve touching the Meuse."

I agree with the 2nd half, but it is also worth pointing out that if the Axis largely refrains from attacking and conserves his forces, he may well in fact outnumber the Allied forces (without the British) that are supposed to conduct an offensive against him.