All Aboard! (Working Title)

[AnalogGamer]

https://www.dropbox.com/preview/RR%20Co ... e=personal

I will place the file in whatever service works best for the community.

Greetings All,

It is time to show you all what I have been working on. This is the map. Not playable yet. No units, zones, etc. Put it in the editor and turn on Soviet Unit view. The only units placed are the static Soviet positions, but they help show how things will go.

The Concept - TL:DR - Large, fictional battle with lots of logistics and using every club in the bag. Historical forces. No uber-units or overstrength.

I started this map before I got the GC, Once I started the GC, things took on a sense of purpose. While I love this game, I am not fond of spending my leisure time locked in a broom closet with a rabid honey badger. Having a small map stuffed full of overstrength units doesn't do it for me.

So I went in another direction. Depth. Depth of time, space and resources. The ability to recover from an error. The option to use your tactical abilities to their fullest. 135x96 hexes. Almost 13,000 hexes. All available for use the entire battle. 160-180 turns planned. Significant per-diems for both sides. The Soviet player never makes more than he does at the start. The German player never makes less than he does at start. As zones and objectives are taken, the Soviet side loses income. Think of it as nine 20-turn battles stuck together with no break in between. You must pay higher costs for replacements and upgrades, but the PP will be there for judicious use.

The map is fictional, yet immersive. It mimics natural conditions, as well as historical ones. The Soviet road network is hideously over-represented in every PC battle I have seen. No more. Take a train or go cross-country. The roads are there, but they are broken up into sections. They fade and return along their tracks. Mud WILL bog road travel, as it should.

If you have played Railroad Tycoon, this concept will snap right into place. Panzer Tycoon. Railroad Corps. Railroad Tycoon With Extreme Prejudice. I give a new meaning to "hostile takeover" of a railroad.

NO AI, as the trains and distances would kill it. This is Head-to-Head only. H2H

The initial release version will be for the vanilla game. No mods at all. I found work-arounds for all absolutely neccesary things within the game. The "final" version will be fully modded for both visual and functional traits. Camo strongpoints, Camo A/T. Soviet Partisans! Recon move on ALL aircraft. Improved skins for trains, planes, oil derricks, etc.

It is what I call a static, single-battle campaign. I have to make it a campaign to get core and aux units. I will make more battles to follow it if interest is shown. If ANY battle pair actually finishes the thing and sends me the final files, I will re-set the next battle for them using their units.


So take a look and tell me what you think. Designers should be able to get the idea once they see what it is. I still have a couple passes to make across the map to tweak some things, but it is done for all intents and purposes. Hope you like it, and may your rounds never fall short!


AG

[AnalogGamer]

130 views. No replies. I must have done something wrong.

Is the file not available? Does no one like to look at unfinished work? Is it that bad? Is it the fictional element?

Took over a year on and off to craft the map. If the concept is not to anyone's taste then feel free to use the map at least. Crop it to any size you wish and get some use out of it.

I am still tweaking and can post a completed version soon.

If anyone has input or critique or anything at all it would be greatly appreciated. Not looking for a fan club, but ways in which this project can be made into something people want to use.

Thanks for your attention.

[rubyjuno]

Morning AG, first all of all let me thank you for contributing to the community. I can see it is disappointing that no one has replied to your post. I can only tell you why I passed on this one and maybe it is the same for some of the others who viewed it but did not reply. Firstly, like most players I would imagine, I have never opened the editor, so when you say at the start "put it in the editor" that stopped me straight away. Yes, there are a good number of modders (and we're all extremely grateful!), but I think the vast majority of players just play. Secondly, also like many players, I only play against the AI because my opportunities to play are irregular so I couldn't expect another human player to put up with that - so when you said head-to-head only I knew there was no point in me looking. I hope others take the time to reply and wish you luck with your project

[PeteMitchell]

Morning AG, first all of all let me thank you for contributing to the community. I can see it is disappointing that no one has replied to your post. I can only tell you why I passed on this one and maybe it is the same for some of the others who viewed it but did not reply. Firstly, like most players I would imagine, I have never opened the editor, so when you say at the start "put it in the editor" that stopped me straight away. Yes, there are a good number of modders (and we're all extremely grateful!), but I think the vast majority of players just play. Secondly, also like many players, I only play against the AI because my opportunities to play are irregular so I couldn't expect another human player to put up with that - so when you said head-to-head only I knew there was no point in me looking. I hope others take the time to reply and wish you luck with your project

I was curious, however I tend to agree with all these points, plus it seems you need to register with / log on to dropbox to actually download the file. I think there was also a way to put stuff on dropbox without the login requirement. As an alternative, maybe any chance to put a (somehow viewable) jpg/png of the map to imgur.com and post the link here, please? Thanks!

[Sid Meier]

Something wrong with download from DropBox.

You can attach this file right here on Forum Board.

[glaude1955]

Try Mediafire.
It works fine

[AnalogGamer]

I had no idea the file could not be accessed. My bad. Never used dropbox before. It came up on a Google for places to put files for download.


http://www.mediafire.com/file/tyd94rf3j ... pzscn/file

If you need the .pzloc as well I can do that.

Yeah, I put this up in the scenario design area, hoping some of the designers, mapmakers and modders(ppl who use the editor) would want to take a gander. The structure of the forces, reinforcements, per diems, zones, etc. are done in my head, but not placed on the map yet.

If there is a way to make it work with AI, then I would gladly accept any advice that designer would care to give.

To look at the map in the editor is easy. Download the file and then open the editor at the PzC startup screen. Standard Windows tabs at the top for opening files etc makes it easy to find and open the file. It is a good way to "walk" around the map at different zoom levels.

Turn hexes off for best visual immersion. Take a walk around and see if it works or not.

Thanks for the help!

[PeteMitchell]

Thanks AnalogGamer, I downloaded and opened the file! The map is impressive, it’s big… around 2/3 of the Battlefield Europe map, not sure about the land/water ratio though.

Please allow two quick thoughts:

1. Your planned turn count of 160-180 seems massive, so with one turn a day (each side), you might be playing six months straight…

2. The map has several natural barriers (some in line from north to south but also some back to back from west to east)… not to say “chokepoints” actually, so depending on your envisioned force balance, this map can become very hard to win from an Axis perspective…

[Yrfin]

First at all - What scale of Map ?
I mean km/Hex.

[AnalogGamer]

If one turns on "show units" with the Soviet side selected, the present static positions will become visible. This keeps the initial mobile unit count down for the Soviet player, preventing a "breaking" of the scenario by moving everything up to the front at or near the beginning.

The scale was 2 turns per day for 90 day campaign. Summer up to the Rasputitsa. The map scale is approx. 7-10km per hex I would say. I may cut it to 120 turns or so once I run a few quick static "move-throughs". I have made quite a few battles and campaigns, just never with the PzC editor. Even made a few in the original Panzer General editor back in the day. ANY help or advice would be greatly appreciated from those who have made scenarios, and are aware of general hex-per-turn ratios. I would LOVE 90-120 turns.

The open water allows for more amphibious options, as well as opportunities for naval engagements and shore bombardment to interdict coastal logistics routes. Again. showing the Soviet static units will make things much clearer. Shore line makes for options. Both sides will have significant naval forces, that are reinforced during the battle. Not swarms of uber-units, but hopefully enough. The water also keeps the "main" land Front more manageable, by confining it to the Northern half of the map. Plus taking those islands cuts Soviet per-diem.

Paras for the Germans and Partisans(modeled as pop-up Conscripts in forest hexes) for the Soviets should keep even the rear areas active for both sides. Cut a rail line for a few turns and things could get hairy 50 hexes away 10 turns down the road.

All reinforcements will come on from each player's respective side. German logistic lines will get longer, while the Soviet lines shorten, just like it was. My "historical accuracy" resides in different areas. Look at my roads for another.

Consider it a sand-table exercise for an Army Group Commander and staff. Getting the proper forces to the right place at the correct time is more important than many may realize. This project is an attempt to give people the opportunity to experience the living hell of what Raus, Guderian, Rokossovsky and the rest went through. 50+ trains, 50+ ships, 40+ air transport/gliders. The Soviets get more trains but less ships and planes. That number would need to be husbanded for the entire battle.

Overlay changes are still being made to make some "city/station" hexes appear much more humble. If a rail flag is NOT on a bridge, then it is a railroad station. Plenty of places to get on and off the trains and into battle.

By viewing Soviet units, one can also see the Oil Fields. Destruction of assets costs Soviet per-diem.

The rail system is set up into a natural appearing, yet evenly spread grid. No area of the main land mass is more than a few turns travel from a rail line or station. Experienced editor jockeys can use the proper view settings to see what looks like any major metropolitan area's subway system map.

Commanders get what they need, but never all they want. Local concentration is always possible, at the cost of thinning reserves out somewhere else. Keeping the main line of resistance fed from rotating reserves, spoiling attacks, many more options are available when one scales up the area but keeps unit counts historical per square mile.

The starting line of resistance will consist of damaged auxiliaries on both sides, backed up by Core. We now return you to your battle already in progress...


I am unsure how many long-term "battle pairs" there are in this community. Many games have pairs that play against each other for years, and may be looking for an epic quest to take their time with.

[cw58]

Very nice looking map ..... and big! Definitely more war/campaign size than single battle size.

It will be interesting to see it with all the forces deployed but looks like plenty of room to maneuver. I've never been one to use rail transport much (I always forget) but it seems like a necessity here.

The only other thing I noticed is that all your fortresses, strongpoints, etc. are axis units, even those that are obviously meant to be Allied. I know you still have to place units but that's me, Captain Obvious, pointing out the ... obvious

But overall, a great looking map. Thanks for sharing.

[jeffoot77]

hello

could you (or anyone) put a jpg of the map here , please?

[PeteMitchell]

hello

could you (or anyone) put a jpg of the map here , please?

Here you go, only small size though...
(right click and open in new tab for larger picture)

RR Corps.jpg (136.57 KiB) Viewed 4469 times

[AnalogGamer]

Thanks for the input, and putting that picture up.

This weekend is final pass on the map and then starting on zones and per-turn calculations for PP allowances. Diving into that will be a treat.

Then it is initial forces and then reinforcement schedules and amounts.

It will be a balancing act between giving enough PP for meaningful use, without incentivizing front-line purchases. By ensuring a steady supply of reinforcements, the use of the rail network will be encouraged.

It may be possible to keep it to around 90 turns or so. One turn a day for a 3 month summer campaign.

[PeteMitchell]

Thanks for the input, and putting that picture up.

This weekend is final pass on the map and then starting on zones and per-turn calculations for PP allowances. Diving into that will be a treat.

Then it is initial forces and then reinforcement schedules and amounts.

It will be a balancing act between giving enough PP for meaningful use, without incentivizing front-line purchases. By ensuring a steady supply of reinforcements, the use of the rail network will be encouraged.

It may be possible to keep it to around 90 turns or so. One turn a day for a 3 month summer campaign.

You are welcome, regarding front-line purchases: have you thought about limiting the possibility to buy new forces at a few selected hinterland cities only? If yes, this would also apply to upgrades of units as far as I understand. Also, will you use the standard equipment file or the more realistic one from deducter?

[AnalogGamer]

I going to attempt to make sure that the ONLY places where units can be purchased/upgraded/placed is at the four cities on each map edge. Everything that is not in use has to come from the rear. Hence the trains, planes and ships in profusion. Anyone can do well in combat with practice... this is another level up in granularity. Time to set down the rifle and take up the baton. A General is a stage manager just as much as a soldier. Getting the pieces to their places on time means just as much as what happens after contact. If a player wants to upgrade a unit during the battle, then it gets on a train to the rear and upgrades... then entrains for the trip to the front.

My personal vision involves modding, but it would take too long to finish. I will put out two versions. The first will be playable with the vanilla game. Soon™. The second will be its own mod and campaign in one.

My mod will include, but not be limited to...

120mm mortars for both sides(move 2 range 2 RoF 12). ALL planes will have recon move and an extra move point. Special recon fighters with more move and no combat ability. Cheaper and better AA. "Harbor Master/Shipkiller" forts. Camo strongpoints with close terrain stats. Camo coastal strongpoints for observation and landing inhibition. Modded "obsolete" battleships with less move and combat. Soviet Partisans with special movement traits. Modded visuals for trains, oil rigs, open pit mines, etc. Garrison troops.

This is a labour of love, but I am a neophyte with this particular editor. If it was Combat Mission or some of the other games I have made sceanrios for, it wouldn't take as long. Maps are my thing. Once I get "under the hood" progress slows.

[AnalogGamer]

Oh cw, the units ARE Soviet, they just had facing and "side" issues. I had not set that in scenario parameters yet. I had to set the nations to their sides, etc. It's all good now. The file that is currently out there is just an alpha view to see what folks think of spending 90+ turns having depth in all areas. I hadn't realized that the coastal roads weren't even done yet.

It will work out to 90+ turns it seems, so that gets it back into the realm of the reasonable for PvP.

Placing initial units now, and working out reinforcement schedules. Tweaking the tattered auxiliaries on the front lines, and setting up core placement zones for maximum options.

Another area that I get "historically accurate" is in the Orders Of Battle. It is May 1943. That does NOT mean the map is full of shiny new upgraded units. The majority of infantry units are NOT '43. PzIVG, NOT Tiger/Panther, is the order of the day. Towed A/T, artillery and A/A is more prevalent than Self-Propelled. It may be fictional, sandbox-style terrain, but the forces are not. Auxiliaries may be experienced, but they are set to a max of 9 or 10. NO ONE goes over 12! Heroes and experience can pile on in 95 turns, that should be enough.

Both Core and Auxiliary Units will initially deploy with experience. You are dropped into a campaign already in progress, complete with heroes for selected units. The heroes will be ones that people like and expect, just toned down a notch from what most like in their campaigns. Gustav and some other artillery get a +1 Move, a few tanks get some Attack help, etc. Granularity and choices to make, more than making super-units.

I get a little "beer & pretzels" at sea. A good portion of the KriegsMarine has been transplanted, and the Soviets have been given a slightly ahistorical force to meet them. This will not be an initial spasm, like in other battles in the GC. All that open water means "here there be monsters". There will be forces coming on during the battle to ensure no one grows complacent at sea. The Soviet player may choose to trade space for time, and gather a hammer blow that knocks the Germans back. Fall back while moving rear units up. Wait for the initial reinforcement. Recipe for a case of the "Rompin' Stompin' Russian Red-@ss". May cost an island and part of another.

[AnalogGamer]

Found a possible non-mod way to do something I wanted to do for this project. Was looking into heroes, and noticed that I could input negative numbers.

As you may have seen, I am attempting to simulate the Russian road network in all its ox-cart-track glory. By using the "fade" road icon, I have broken the network up a bit, but thought that the river crossings would slow the Russians down. Didn't want permanent bridges everywhere though.

My work-around … Auxiliary Soviet Bridging Engineers. Permanent Strength 5-7, depending on proximity to front. -2 Move hero. High Experience. Adjacent to Rail crossings at rivers, near road fades.

My bridges are done. Instead of the Soviets blowing the bridges, the Germans have to kill them... and then bring their own along. The Germans have the option of deep-strike air raids to inhibit Soviet road transport.

That'll do pig... that'll do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clz9ykXMkeM

[AnalogGamer]

Orders of Battle are set. Still laying them down, and then have to work out reinforcement schedules.

I am trying something that I have done elsewhere to achieve granularity and immersion. Don't know if other designers here have done the same for PvP scenarios.

The "5-point spread" in PzC is usually from 10 to 15-strength. I changed the paradigm in two ways. The first is that my spread runs from 7 to 12. The second is making all auxiliaries 7-10, and all Core 10-11(with possible upgrade to 12).

Most aux units go to 9, some are 8. Many aux supporting arms(AA,A/T,ART) can go to 10. Some start lower and can be "repaired" back to 8 or 9. Lower grade equipment as well. Very few '43-grade units.

Cores come on full-strength, with some at 11. Bright shiny '43 equipment, with a leavening of newer '42. Heroes scattered throughout.

The MLR(main line of resistance) is composed entirely of auxiliaries on both sides. Directly behind the MLR are numerous rally points with badly damaged auxiliary units, that must be repaired to be put back on the line. To the rear are separate groups of Cores. Behind that are follow-on auxiliaries to feed into the grinder.

Aux v Aux - fair fight. Core v Core - fair fight. Core v Aux - things go sideways.

German Commanders now have more options. Using Cores to stiffen the MLR, thereby saving auxiliaries to battle on stronger. The Grind Option. Spread a couple groups of Cores for a push. Or concentrate to punch a hole, and run rampant through the rear. Concentration leaves areas open for the enemy to do the same.

The Soviet Commander will have multiple mobile Core groups to react to any breakthrough, as long as he keeps them separate. Soviet Main Core forces are entrained far back, to allow initial German sense of superiority and give some breathing room to the battle space. Much coal will be burned getting those KVs and SMGs to the front in time. The tone should change when they do arrive.

Both sides have had their large-caliber artillery immobilized. -1 Move hero and +1 range for >150mm. Germans get transport. SOME Soviet gets transport. Others die where they stand.

All things being equal, I went light on air power. Black sky concentration would leave empty skies everywhere else. Judicious use is of paramount importance. Core air is rare but potent. Aux air is prevalent but not as scary.

As a rule... Aux will hurt you, Core will kill you.