(Army) tech advancement

[Lebo44]

Hi,

I want to ask if in FOG: Empires there is a mechanics related to tech advancement (like in 4X games or something similarto traditions in Paradox games). In particular if there is a system that tries to capture evolution of army organization (like Marian reforms) and weapons, fleet construction, advancement in infrastructure technologies so the player has new armies (with better stats available), heavier ships or better roads available. If not, if there is at least a room for something like this to be added by modding.

I'm re-watching the twitch for the 4th time I can't wait for the release of this game

Thanks

[Lebo44]

Ahh there were so many topics raised during this short twitch that I missed this part few times. The answer to my question is around 1h10m into the stream.

According to Pocus some factions can upgrade their armies if they trigger appropriate National Decisions (which depends on meeting certain conditions). For example Rome starts with Early Republican Legion and by triggering Marian Reforms you can upgrade it to Marian Legion. Then you can upgrade it further to Imperial Legion by switching the government from Republic to Empire. However it wan't be a single event. Rathern than by changing the government you will be provided with some decisions how to upgrade your army, f.e. in one go or rather slow and steady. The same concerns Roman fleet which is going to be weak at the beginning of a game but can be improved significantly through decisions.

[Pocus]

That's right, as per the Twitch Video, Rome is a bit of the blessed child right now with custom decisions to upgrade twice the Legions, once with the Marian reform, once with the Imperial Reform. Plus a national decision to add corvus to his ships.

For others nations, they have each 6 reforms to upgrade 6 big categories of units (cavalry, skirmishers, infantry etc.) to their 'improved' variant. They can only be given to your available pool of decisions if you reach Civilization Level 3 aka 'Imperial' level though, so they won't probably be given before the 2nd part of the game for most nations. Although some might manage to go Imperial rapidly with some good gameplay.

[SpeedyCM]

I'm curious how you will be going about these unit upgrades for nations that historically went extinct early in the games time frame and therefore don't have extensive FOG 2 army lists.
For example if a player manages to build a lasting empire with the Samnites or Etruscans how will their armies evolve?

[Pocus]

Except for Rome, the actual model used on map don't differ visually, only the stats (both in Empires and if you do a battle in FOG2). We are not restricting ourselves to what FOG2 have as army lists, as the game is definitively a standalone game, and the liaison with FOG2 an extra, optional feature.

[Southern Hunter]

I hope that veterancy is respected, unlike how it has been handled in some comparable games.

It occurs in some games that units can be trained at very high levels of veterancy, which is not realistic. In fact, the rate of improvement of training levels is quicker than the generation of veterancy through fighting. This means there is no need to preserve veterans, you can always get more later.

Instead, elite troops should be extremely valuable and treasured. Casualties should not automatically be replaced at veteran level (unless they are taken from other troops, at the cost of their own experience).

Psychologically and gameplay wise, it is great fun to develop and cherish veterans, and to use them for decisive action in battles, bearing in mind that losses are a tragedy. Drama!

[Pocus]

Having veterans troops is not that straightforward, they have to fight and survive several battles. Being only a participant in a battle gives you a few experience, but being active and even better killing a unit is much better. Veterans when they replace hits can lose some experience, and as their experience level goes up, so is their upkeep, to represent in an abstract way their additional demands and expectations on wages and loot.

A veteran unit is a quite powerful unit, as the game favors a lot quality over quantity, when it comes to battles. Now, a veteran can still be overwhelmed if you ask them too much.

[Southern Hunter]

Having veterans troops is not that straightforward, they have to fight and survive several battles. Being only a participant in a battle gives you a few experience, but being active and even better killing a unit is much better. Veterans when they replace hits can lose some experience, and as their experience level goes up, so is their upkeep, to represent in an abstract way their additional demands and expectations on wages and loot.

A veteran unit is a quite powerful unit, as the game favors a lot quality over quantity, when it comes to battles. Now, a veteran can still be overwhelmed if you ask them too much.

Well, sounds good I think. So long as there are not barracks structures that automatically pop out veterans and elites.

[Pocus]

There are some buildings, national or ruler modifiers that can make some of the initial troops above levy level at start, but we have been wary to not go overboard here, nothing replaces battlefield experience. That said, we also had to simulate that some soldiers were better trained than others.

[76mm]

What about units/armies degrading over time? Units do not always continually improve; phalanxes probably reached their peak under Alexander, then slowly declined, etc. Various other lists in FOG2 also demonstrate this phenomenon, I think it would be important to somehow reflect it.

[Pocus]

Phalanx don't get an improved version, they are stuck with the unit archetype the game starts with. Heavy infantries get an improved version. Legions get two improved generations. Plus Phalanx, although powerful, fare badly in difficult terrain and are useless in city assaults, so they are not indomitable tanks.

[76mm]

Phalanx don't get an improved version, they are stuck with the unit archetype the game starts with. Heavy infantries get an improved version. Legions get two improved generations. Plus Phalanx, although powerful, fare badly in difficult terrain and are useless in city assaults, so they are not indomitable tanks.

That's not really what I meant; for instance, let's say that Kingdom X has superior phalanxes. Will that kingdom then always have access to superior phalanxes, or could they degrade over time so that it can only build average phalanxes if certain conditions aren't met?

One thing that always bugs me about games with tech trees is the ability to build a unit forever once you have "discovered" the technology--technology is not the only relevant factor.