2 units attack together to prevent escapes

[Mordan]

PC2 allows you to swap units.. that's great

one of the most annoying thing yet is not being able to attack together.

2 units are next to another one. No movement left for either. The first unit attacks.. By luck or by elements beyond of the control of the player, the attacked unit retreats.. that's unfair. a free movement point given to the attacked unit. The last unit is left doing nothing that turn.

Very frustrating.

Any possible gameplay solution?

[Kerensky]

Yea I've definitely run into this problem a lot, shame to say it but it's probably the last thing that I undo now that RNG isn't spoiling combat results.

I run into this even more because I'm a huge fan of mass attack bonuses and other adjacency bonuses. And one retreat before I expect it, a unit slips out of range of a lot of my planned follow up attacks.

Personally, I would luv to solve this using a very X-Com style solution. You can put a unit on overwatch. It consumes all remaining actions the unit has (both movement and attack) and it requires an available attack option to enable. What does overwatch do? When a unit leaves the Zone of Control of a unit on overwatch, an opportunity shot is made on the moving unit. This attack has reduced accuracy, as a penalty.

This solves the issue of escaping units and comes with a bonus.

That sweet, sweet X-Com moment when movement triggers a flurry of attacks from multiple units.

[janscas]

Yea I've definitely run into this problem a lot, shame to say it but it's probably the last thing that I undo now that RNG isn't spoiling combat results.

I run into this even more because I'm a huge fan of mass attack bonuses and other adjacency bonuses. And one retreat before I expect it, a unit slips out of range of a lot of my planned follow up attacks.

Personally, I would luv to solve this using a very X-Com style solution. You can put a unit on overwatch. It consumes all remaining actions the unit has (both movement and attack) and it requires an available attack option to enable. What does overwatch do? When a unit leaves the Zone of Control of a unit on overwatch, an opportunity shot is made on the moving unit. This attack has reduced accuracy, as a penalty.

This solves the issue of escaping units and comes with a bonus.

That sweet, sweet X-Com moment when movement triggers a flurry of attacks from multiple units.

That's not a solution. You set overwatch and then attack with the first unit. Ok if it retreats... but if it doesn't you lose an attack.

[Kerensky]

That's not a solution. You set overwatch and then attack with the first unit. Ok if it retreats... but if it doesn't you lose an attack.

It's a foundation of an idea, but clearly more would be necessary to properly implement it into this game.

[ErissN6]

The solution is to make complete encirclement.
If you can't then that's why the target may evade some attacks. That's normal.
This is not a free movement, it is paid on the next turn, where the target willl have so less movement.
And you are happy when you're own encircled units can evade some attacks like this...

[Kerensky]

The solution is to make complete encirclement.
If you can't then that's why the target may evade some attacks. That's normal.
This is not a free movement, next turn the target willl have so less movement.

While I absolutely endorse this solution, and have suggested in it other threads...

There are cases where this is not possible. Example, when the enemy is part of a defensive network, and their retreat path will take them behind a second defensive line.

How about:

Overwatch/Opportunity Fire, V2:

1. Activated ability (like forced march)
2. Activation requires un-used attack action.
3. Activation consumes any and all remaining movement action points. Activation does not consume attack action.
4. When active, if any enemy unit leaves this unit's Zone of Control, the enemy unit is fired upon by the Overwatching unit, in an attack with reduced accuracy.
5. Opportunity fire attacks consume a unit's attack action.

That will solve it nicely, because it no longer consumes your attack on activation, only on actual firing.

It has interesting room for growth/hero heroes too.

Improved opportunity fire:
A. Remove accuracy penalty.
B. Attack action not consumed on first opportunity shot.
C. Opportunity fire triggers when an enemy unit enters your Zone of Control. (That's hero levels of power increase.)

As a side note... this might be a good way to limit recon cars, which currently drive circles around anything they encounter with their phase movement abilities.

[Rood]

[...]a free movement point given to the attacked unit. [...]

As I understand the unit that retreated has one less movement point on the opponent's/AI's turn.
Your own units also benefit from this mechanic, saved a plenty of my own units (AI is much more aggressive than previous versions).

I understand your frustration though.

[comradep]

I'm not sure overwatch activating when units attempt to move out of a ZOC is a good idea. It could glue AI units in place if the AI feels it would take high losses upon leaving.

The game has a retreat priorities mechanic of sorts, with units attempting to move to a hex without an enemy ZOC when retreating, so you can already bump AI units into a favourable hex for a follow up attack.

All options being equal, the chosen hex to retreat to might be random, but that may or may not be a problem depending on the directions you're attacking the enemy unit from. If you place a "triangle" of three units around the enemy unit to receive 2x Mass Attack bonuses, it will always be bumped into someone's ZOC.

You could also decide to cause less suppression and take an extra strength point loss.

I find finishing off units is much less difficult and annoying than in OOB, but that might be due to the traits I'm using.

[Mordan]

The solution is to make complete encirclement.
If you can't then that's why the target may evade some attacks. That's normal.
This is not a free movement, it is paid on the next turn, where the target willl have so less movement.
And you are happy when you're own encircled units can evade some attacks like this...

that are many cases where its not possible..

The overwatch is interesting

But just like PC2 introduced simultaneous movement with unit swapping. I would have thought a simultaneous attack solution would be favored.

Select one unit, press CTRL (instead of shift), select more units with an unspent attack action. then select attacked unit. I will leave to Kerensky how the attack is resolved (stacked attacks ect, shared damage..) But imo the core mechanics is simple enough to implement.

as a bonus It would speed up a little the gameplay that i find much slower than in PC1.

[jeffoot77]

+1 for the "forced march" bonus for any unit but usable only once by turn . ( you must choose the unit at the end)

[Gwaylare]

Overwatch/Opportunity Fire, V2:

1. Activated ability (like forced march)
2. Activation requires un-used attack action.
3. Activation consumes any and all remaining movement action points. Activation does not consume attack action.
4. When active, if any enemy unit leaves this unit's Zone of Control, the enemy unit is fired upon by the Overwatching unit, in an attack with reduced accuracy.
5. Opportunity fire attacks consume a unit's attack action.

That will solve it nicely, because it no longer consumes your attack on activation, only on actual firing.

I love this idea Kerensky, overwatch is a brilliant idea. This did work for a lot of games and it is much older than XCOM 2. This was implemented in Incubation from blue byte already more than twenty years ago

Overwatch would allow a lot other tactical possibilities. You are able to lock a unit down with an encirclement. May be you do not want to attack, because a withdraw will break the encirclement. Overwatch does mean you will attack when the opponent is moving in his turn to break the encirclement

May be you have to reduce the accuracy, but you can drop defensive bonusses like entrenchment.

As well Overwatch could be triggert, when someone is sneaking through your ZOC like recons do or may be bypassing planes.

Best regards
Gwaylare

[Mordan]

That's not a solution. You set overwatch and then attack with the first unit. Ok if it retreats... but if it doesn't you lose an attack.

It's a foundation of an idea, but clearly more would be necessary to properly implement it into this game.

you also have to fix this that just happened.

I have like 4 units encircled. I attack one encircled tank inside a forest with infantry. Infantry does good.. Tank moves OUT of the encirclement circle. Its basically unfair.. On hits turn, he can get completely OUT of encirclement.

That tank should have surrendered period. I didn't want him to move at all! He now even Blocks my own units from moving.. Totally unfair. Its even more unfair that the retreat route is not know in advance.

Is it random? how is that route decided?

[comradep]

you also have to fix this that just happened.

I have like 4 units encircled. I attack one encircled tank inside a forest with infantry. Infantry does good.. Tank moves OUT of the encirclement circle. Its basically unfair.. On hits turn, he can get completely OUT of encirclement.

That tank should have surrendered period. I didn't want him to move at all! He now even Blocks my own units from moving.. Totally unfair. Its even more unfair that the retreat route is not know in advance.

Is it random? how is that route decided?

I'm not sure what the retreat priorities are aside from 1) hex with no enemy ZOC > 2) hex with enemy ZOC

Considering how often the AI units retreat into a minor river, I wonder if there are additional priority checks beyond the above for a hex selected for the retreat if all options are equal.

[Nalikill]

Overwatch would also let you differentiate infantry units a lot more - and maybe add more infantry units:

• Grenadiers - Tankbusters - Has +5 Hard Attack and +5 Close Defense when in Overwatch
• Special Forces - Predators - Has +10 Soft Attack when in Overwatch
• Pioneer - Scavenger Specialist - Reduces enemy fuel and ammunition when firing in Overwatch
• Schirmboys - Adrenaline Junkies - Can enter overwatch immediately after paradropping instead of moving

It would add a whole tactical and strategic dimension to infantry that really isn't there right now. Maybe even tanks. You could use the +close defense on overwatch modifier to make "city tanks", ones that are (MARGINALLY) more suitable for occupying city streets.

[Mordan]

you also have to fix this that just happened.

I have like 4 units encircled. I attack one encircled tank inside a forest with infantry. Infantry does good.. Tank moves OUT of the encirclement circle. Its basically unfair.. On hits turn, he can get completely OUT of encirclement.

That tank should have surrendered period. I didn't want him to move at all! He now even Blocks my own units from moving.. Totally unfair. Its even more unfair that the retreat route is not know in advance.

Is it random? how is that route decided?

I'm not sure what the retreat priorities are aside from 1) hex with no enemy ZOC > 2) hex with enemy ZOC

Considering how often the AI units retreat into a minor river, I wonder if there are additional priority checks beyond the above for a hex selected for the retreat if all options are equal.

talking only MP, as I don't play the campaign or the AI.

The retreat shouldn't be an advantage to the defending player. Never. In PC1, an attacker could plan ahead and the unit would completely surrender. Making the gameplay faster and more dynamic.

Here in PC2 you have units retreating all the time, I just had a retreating unit moving out of encirclement, moving 2 hexes away free of charge and encircling one of MY OWN units the other side! Complete BS.

It was much better in PC1 where any player had to be careful not to overcrowd hexes.

[comradep]

I don't know if retreat priorities are different in MP, the "AI" in my post was just to indicate the results were observed when playing against the AI.

I see your point about this being annoying, also due to not being able to land killing blows and units regaining up to 7 strength on the enemy turn.

It's a delicate balance, as the larger infantry unit size might cause issues if units being attacked stay in place longer.

Enemy units retreating less quickly is good if there are adjacent friendly units which can't move, but can attack.

Units retreating like they do now is good for taking objectives, for allowing another air strike and for pushing units out of the way (possibly allowing follow-up attacks).

[Gwaylare]

talking only MP, as I don't play the campaign or the AI.

The retreat shouldn't be an advantage to the defending player. Never. In PC1, an attacker could plan ahead and the unit would completely surrender. Making the gameplay faster and more dynamic.

Here in PC2 you have units retreating all the time, I just had a retreating unit moving out of encirclement, moving 2 hexes away free of charge and encircling one of MY OWN units the other side! Complete BS.

It was much better in PC1 where any player had to be careful not to overcrowd hexes.

In MP without RNG a unit never retreats by accident. You always know before an attack, that they will retreat. Ok the information about a retreat could be mentioned within the prediction, but we did not have something like that in PC. Those retreats happened to me a lot of times and it is annoying, but we are able to predict this behavior and adjust our plans. The most annoying thing is, we did not.

I agree that an unit just retreated or an unit fully suppressed should loose ZOC completely. This would solve a lot of problems with retreated troops interfering your plans. Overwatch would solve a lot of problems as well.
May be we do need something like moral affecting retreats, like we know it from several table top games. So the retreat could have some more consequences for the next turns.

I agree as well that the only positive consequence of a retreat should be to save the unit, nothing more. But this fine for me. It is a different playing style not being able to eliminate opponent units all the time, like we did in PC.

The new mechanic is more complex and I like it. In PC a single attacker could direct an opponent unit and push it to a dedicated position. That was to easy and why should a unit retreat like an attacker wishes to?

Best regards
Gwaylare